Can we find a good historical analogy to the trans debate

Nice one Craigy, they’ll never spot you!

Give it a google. This thread doesn't exist to justify feminism

Careful not to make the thread about this one person

Nah. The world is not our oyster Craigy. You're not going to engage so I won't bother telling you why (give it a google if you're curious).

But I do think views like yours demonstrate the problem. Some men think that women have it made, and they should be made to give it up already.

What makes you think I don't go out and do what I want? I'm not depressed, nor have I ever been. Just because women go out and do/get what they want doesn't mean it's easy. It's easier for my husband than it is for me, he knows this, sees it and admits it. That does not mean it's his or any other mans fault. It is what it is, burying your head in the sand won't change it.

Why does it bother you that women are oppressed? Why deny it? Why belittle it? Will denying it or belittling it help transwomen? Are you interested in the rights of transwomen at all? Or do you just want to argue with women on the Internet?

CraigyRicherererer what are you trying to achieve? If you made valid points ok, if you educated people about the discrimination of transwomen, that would make sense. But belittling the oppression of others, for what? To cherry pick examples that don't fit the general norm or suggest that some of those examples can over ride massive things like apartheid, slavery and centuries of the oppression of women is just fantasy and achieves absolutely zilch.

May & Thatcher are not leaders because they adopted male characteristics.
They are 'leaders' because they adopted the current dog eat dog, winners/losers, hierarchical mode of politics. Those aren't male characteristics, they are political ones; and violence doesn't represent strength.

Still can't find it. What I was looking for was a particular subgroup of transgender people who identify as "multiples". I did also find this though...
4thwavenow.com/tag/transgender-dissociation/

Not what I was looking for, but take a look at this...
thebodyisnotanapology.com/magazine/trans-people-trauma-and-dissociative-identities/

CraigyRicherererer that's like saying that America and South Africa had black presidents so therefore black people have not been victims of white supramacy. The oppressed do have occasional leaders. Always have, always will. Women ruled in some ancient societies, Egypt yes, others are debateable, they were not leaders because they were female, they were leaders because they adopted male characteristics. Also they did not continue to lead, the role of women got worse, not better. They didn't rule in medieval Europe. Talking about the supposed good old days before oppression is meaningless and sounds like you are trying to brush it off.

It reminds me very much colonialism and cultural appropriation. Cultural elements are copied from a minority culture by the dominant culture. Often against the wishes of the original culture. The culture loses its depth and significance, like dream catchers being pretty and ignoring their cultural symbolism but just using them to sell a romantacised view of native Americans to the world. Very much reminds me of womanhood being about feminity, it's so much more than that but is simplified to being about symbols and removes those symbols from lived depth and experience.

Sophocles probably because craigy has been on a number of threads in the last few days and to my knowledge has already been banned twice.

History is not really my strong point, but the Highland Clearances kept coming to mind when I was reading this thread.

IronGirder Ptraci and Dios from Pyramids? Yes, I misspelled my name..

Er, why was craigys post deleted?

It wasn't offensive or abusive. It was argumentative and silly but if we deleted all of those...

The Civil War also had elements of pseudo science.

Both sides had astrologists which was a highly respected science at the time whilst it was simultaneously privately laughed and treated with suspicion as being the work of charlatans often by their own side.

Their importance to the leaders of both sides was not in 'telling the truth' nor 'predicting the future'. It was in how it affected the moral of the general public and how it could influence which side people supported.

In other words: propaganda.

Where ever you see propaganda being used extensively, you will see historic parallels.

Science as a tool for propaganda purposes is a reoccurring theme.

Often these scientists do it purely for their own gain and status. And will flip sides if they are personally at risk of losing that somehow.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Lilly
This fella is the one I know about in relation to the Civil War.

He tried to place himself as both the friend of the King and of Oliver Cromwell during his lifetime in order to save his own neck.

It is also telling that there is an upsurge in willingness to believe in conspiracy theories at the moment too.

I think it has elements of racial science in the sense that it involves formulating a false premise, then misinterpreting scientific data in order to prove that premise, and as a consequence justify the oppression of an entire class of people.

The Victorians invented the concept of race, then used pseudo-science to legitimise it as a way to justify the colonisation of Africa and the enslavement of its people. Now we have the concept of ladybrain, and pseudo-science being used to legitimise that concept as a justification of the colonisation of 'woman' and the subsequent removal of rights from women as a class.

Thank you for this thread, I've been trying to think of examples too, especially because I'd love to think we'll have something more like balance in a few years where of course transpeople are protected (including proper care and counselling), but crucially so will women and the very definition of "women".

The MPD one gives me the most hope, because it's not going to take long for some or many people to grow up and be furious about being made sterile, because they didn't conform to gender or sexual stereotypes when young.

Everyone like a good car crash story in which you can believe. Everything is Hollywoodised in which you cast the underdog rallying against the odds of the oppresser. Its a simple story which everything is now shoehorned into in pursuit of clicks. People want to believe in the hero as a black and white one dimensional character because we've be taught the story over and over again about how it always ends up with a happy ending. Its always about winners and losers and never about what happens five years down the line when the drama and the attention is all over.

Im not sure that you need to look at from a historical angle and make comparisons that way. You can look at it from this contemporary angle about what sells a story and what makes it big on your screens and how we look to real life to replicate that as preferential to reality.

Why is it that so many kids aspire to be footballers or pop stars rather than the doctors, teacher and lawyers that they might once have held up as role models?

I don’t have enough historical knowledge to say but the twisting of the meaning of everyday language, with the proscription or mandating of language and behaviour, the chilling effect on open discussion, the law, and the clash of rights reminds me of dystopian fiction. The Crucible, 1984, Brave New World, The Handmaid’s Tale. (And the Tiger who Came to Tea, which I would also put in that category!)