Once again, misogyny from transwomen...

Like, OK, some delusional AGP on the internet thinks I'm unfuckable due to being too uppity. I'm supposed to care about that why, exactly?

And you know, it's not like you have a lifetime of dealing with non-AGP but equally sexist men behaving in exactly the same way when you refuse to validate them to draw upon, is it?

Datun I like the way you repositioned oppression and patriarchy. I’ll use that, thank you. I’ve friends who believe we don’t need feminism any more. I’ve only recently realised I am (thanks to peak-transing) and still trying to get my thoughts straight on it.

I think Lily is here? Or was? Awesome stuff Lily!

Some excellent posts (as usual esp Datun and Italian! )

I find it hard to 'admit' I'm on mn.

I promised myself I'd stay away today as have Shit To Do but thought this a good response regarding best words to use:

I'm following Miranda Yardley on Twitter. She shared some tweets that she's received this morning from TRAs and they're absolutely vile.

I get told there's no issues anymore and get accused of being a crazy feminist"

Well be proud of the feminist 'label' and challenge the crazy! who says you are crazy? If it is other women then gently show them how loaded this world is against women, it's not hard to do.

This is an interesting one.

I've seen women on here say they don't tell people in real life that they post on mumsnet. Women who love mumsnet.

And I kind of get that.

Someone asked me what I'd been doing, when I had been spending ages posting on here, and I had a momentary reluctance to say so.

I wondered, rightly or wrongly that the reaction might be, really? Mumsnet? Because, from people who don't use the site, there is a certain perception.

And I was reluctant to spend time to break through that perception in order to justify my use. But I did it. Because I am entirely confident that my opinion of mumsnet is correct!

So now, everyone knows, that I really rate mumsnet, but more importantly, the reasons why.

We quite frequently have men coming on here making the mistake of thinking that mumsnet is all about baking, or nappies, or bored housewives.

And I'm not denigrating those things. I'm just saying that it's far more than that.

When I tell them that there are 12 million unique users per month on here, it's a bit eye-opening. That's an awful lot of women.

And it's the same with feminism.

I acquired 'late onset feminism'. (Which seems to be fairly contagious, at the moment, judging by how many women are saying the same).

And because it's so important to me, now, I do want to talk about it.

But announcing myself as a feminist, to people in real life, was another 'you use mumsnet? Really?' moment.

'Eh? A feminist?' Always followed by a 'Why?'

Because even though I was probably an embryonic feminist all my life. I hadn't connected the dots. So I didn't call myself one.

A couple of friends continue to eye roll. But, because they know me well, and I have sufficient creds in the 'friend bank', they listen.

I'm very careful not to rant. And am more likely to go into drip feed mode. But actually coming out and saying you're a feminist, or you understand feminism now, or you're interested in feminism, is quite liberating.

Especially if done with a light touch. There's a joke in our house that whatever goes wrong it's the fault of the 'fucking patriarchy'.

Taylor22

If words like female oppression and patriarchy are a bridge too far, because, sometimes, they do sound (to the uninitiated) a bit ranty, change them.

Instead of oppression, say disadvantage to women. Instead of patriarchy, say male chauvinism or sexism.

'Women are oppressed by the patriarchy' might well induce an eye roll.

But 'women are disadvantaged by sexism', or 'male chauvinism' is far more likely to be acknowledged, and understood.

Few people will deny the existence of male chauvinism. (Whilst, in the same breath claiming the patriarchy doesn't exist).

@Ekphrasis "I'm seeing the value of taking out a times subscription and writing to let them know why. And writing to let the Guardian know why I'm leaving them. This is how to let the editors know what we want to be written." Brilliant advice.

"Keep letting tiny bits of info out to friends I know aren't yet aware in order to peak them. Support trans people who aren't like this (utter nutters)."

I will leave twitter in a flash if needed and re reg.

"that her vagina didn’t make her look less of a man" I a not sure why women feel the need to stay around and take the abuse from anyone so clearly deranged as to utter such shit.

@Taylor22 "But I feel like I can be understood here. Whenever I mention it elsewhere I get told there's no issues anymore and get accused of being a crazy feminist"

Well be proud of the feminist 'label' and challenge the crazy! who says you are crazy? If it is other women then gently show them how loaded this world is against women, it's not hard to do.

If it is men, then of course they will not believe straight off, it is hard to admit you are part of the sex group (male) that oppresses the other sex group. And we have to keep saying not all men', because of course some men are lovely. But calling you crazy is not lovely.

Geez Datun, that was an amazing post, I was cheering! You could lead us. And you are right about more people finding out and being appalled. I found out from MN in Dec, as I had no idea. I've been telling people and they are shocked as well. Unfortunately here in Canada things have progressed pretty far, but I do take heart from what you're saying.

However I have to admit though that AngryAttackKittens post then made my blood run cold...

They seem to have decided that the answer to this problem is making women too afraid to tell them the truth and if that doesn't work then make telling the truth illegal.

I've been wondering what a trans person sees when they look in the mirror...

I've seen a fair few since moving to Scotland. I don't get it... what part of your brain tells you you an attractive woman... because when I look at you I can very clearly see you are a man... and a very ugly and poor impression of a woman. And it's not very nice to look at either!

I've been sharing all this with DH, he has now peaked and I'm happy! He gets it now... and is starting to read more about it... he disagrees wholeheartedly. After having him peak I've come to the conclusion that most men will never know/care/read into what's going on because all of this will never affect them... and it's only until it starts impacting their lives will they truly be concerned.

I am very worried about the future... as I've been reading about Canada and it looks grim... it's like ground zero of a nasty infection that's spreading worldwide.

Great post, Elderslie, I see lots of truth there.

It'll be listed on the organ donor form next. Fuck right off with that!

transplanting uteruses is a horrible concept. It is like something out of the handmaiden's tale. For a uterus to be given to a man, it has to be taken from a woman.

It's the one thing they know they can't do. All the blather about transplanting uteruses aside.

They hate us and they don't want us to have anything even our own sex and body.

I have reluctantly come to this conclusion.

my daughters and I were talking last night about feminism/sexism etc (they are trans-right-on teenagers - we don't go there). We were talking about how amazing it is that every human being who has ever walked on this earth came out of the body of a woman. I think this is why they hate us tbh.

What do they hope for if they 'erase women'?
Do they think that straight men will want them? Is that the ultimate aim?
Good luck with that one. In fact I think that's where they will lose the war.

"think many of them have a real disconnect about their actual looks as well. This is the fault of women I am afraid who have told them how beautiful and hot they are on a daily basis."

I seem to remember Dustin Hoffman mentioning how he felt when he was preparing for the film Tootsie. When he was in make up, he thought the make up artists could have done a better job to make him appear 'hotter' and was disappointed to hear 'that was the best they could do'. He then went on to say he felt a little more sympathetic to women because of this.
How many times do we hear 'If women just took a little more care of their appearance' therefore we could be hotter if we wanted to.
Do men actually believe this? Perhaps this is why their unabated male confidence gives them hottie goggles.

In CBB, India Willoughby was always confronting other people's views and in some way she was justified. It seemed to me she was looking for a partner.
She fancied Genuwine and he shrugged it off but India looked visibly shaken ( for a moment). This would be upsetting for anyone, but when everyone else inanely compliments her, she knows the compliments are a lie - and she calls them out for it.
Going overboard with compliments from straight people or whoever, doesn't help the cause. India knows this and is probably quite lonely As a result.
The bottom line is this:
Men's entitlement is being fuelled by sub conscious approval of their actions by some women and some men. Germaine Greer knew this and was booed off stage. She knows a thing or two about patriarchy.

I used to happily give out lots of compliments to cross dressers, thinking they probably needed them, solidarity with oppressed minority etc etc.

I’ve realised now that it’s not that they have a shortage of positive responses - they have a surplus of them. It’s like this compulsion/need for people (women) to “admire” them to prove something.

Plus I noticed how they would try to steer the discussion to something they seemed to be getting off on -how silk knickers felt “touching their skin” or what fake breasts felt like or the shock effect they’d managed to have on X member of the unconsenting public (not in a “how can I express myself without being harassed” way but with a touch of glee/humblebragging)

I used to be in a fb beauty group which i ended up leaving as it became a nightmare of handmaidenry fishing

Was it Mrs Gloss? Because I left, firstly because I couldn't bear to read all the posts from lovely looking young women complaining about having "no top lip" and needing fillers (apparently if your top lip doesn't look like a cocktail sausage it needs work) and the TWs wanting make up tips and basking in the compliments- which ALWAYS involve having "great legs". Why is that always crossdresser compliment 101?

Do they think that this relentless sniping at the looks of women who disagree with them will prevent people from noticing the lantern jaw and the giant man hands? Men always do this when women won't do what they want us to. It's hilarious that they think we care. Like, OK, some delusional AGP on the internet thinks I'm unfuckable due to being too uppity. I'm supposed to care about that why, exactly?

4th rule of misogyny: Women's opinions are violence against men thus male violence against women is justified.

*I think many of them have a real disconnect about their actual looks as well. This is the fault of women I am afraid who have told them how beautiful and hot they are on a daily basis.

The same feminists who will rant one minute about the beauty industry and how girls don't need to be pretty all the time will turn and tell a what is clearly a man that he is 'gawjus'. Check their photos on Facebook etc. It's so strange. It's so clear that they are being treated differently than actual females by their friends but they don't care*

Yep, and in the long run treating them that way isn't even helping them, because reality will just be even more of a smack in the fact when it eventually filters through. They seem to have decided that the answer to this problem is making women too afraid to tell them the truth (they don't care what men say because most of them are straight), and if that doesn't work then make telling the truth illegal.

shake I’m not THAT old and I’m already getting tired of the whole (AGP and fetish linked I know now?) compulsion to get others involved in discussions on their appearance?

I bought a skirt on Amazon. Wool midi skirt.

The review section. Usual comments about fit etc.

And a video clip (I’m an amazon addict and I’ve never seen this facility used before) of a bloke in the skirt, and a tiny tight top. Soft focus. On a beach.

Of course I’m clearly bigoted and jealous by not really wanting to see some flashing of hips by an exhibitionist bloke amongst normal mainstream shopping.

The tide will turn, I promise. We may lose the battle, but we will win the war

I do hope so - I just feel afraid at the moment if I’m honest.

Taylor22

Cross posted with you @Datun**

I really really wish I could believe that. But I'm just so down trodden that I can't see it.

This is the reason I think we will ultimately win. We might have short-term losses. Possibly including the GRA - except even that has been kicked into the long grass for now.

Three years ago, it was only the feminists here who made any kind of noise about this. They were constantly attacked for it. Feminists have a highly honed misogyny meter. So they spotted it first.

Then there was a subtle shift.

Posting on AIBU, would be 90% cries of transphobia.

It's completely switched the other way.

At the same time, two years ago they were zero gender critical articles in the press. That has changed.

Autogynephilia was completely underground. That has changed.

More gender critical transwomen are coming out of the woodwork and supporting women. That is a change.

I can't tell you how many women have come on here and said how they used to be blindly pro trans, but now they see the problems. Numerous.

In the space of a year, dozens of feminist websites have been set up. All of them working towards the same goal, despite having to remain secret.

Coupled with that, transactivists have become complacent.

They have physically attacked a woman.

That was a turning point.

They spout such extreme misogyny, that it's impossible to ignore.

The Labour Party have lost several points and 5000 members. All women. This is being reported.

Justin Greening has publically back pedalled.

What we are experiencing now is an upping of the ante by transactivists.

The problem is, they have nowhere to go. Their entire argument has already been disseminated as wide as it can possibly be. All of it. They have no fallback position and nothing left in their arsenal. Transwomen are women.

Women, on the other hand, have only scratched the surface. Most people don't understand the difference between gender and sex. They don't understand gender is a hierarchy with women at the bottom. They don't understand about AGP. And they certainly don't realise how children are being medicated and made sterile.

Women's argument is logical, rational and backed up by evidence and statistics. Once you get it, you really get it.

The general public is running out of patience with the trans agenda.

"Not this again. Stop shoving it down our throats. Who cares? Why are we listening to such a tiny minority", etc.

And that's without hearing most of the argument.

Don't lose heart. Don't take setbacks as an indication.

There will be setbacks. They may be profound.

But women make up over half the population. They simply cannot afford to piss every one of us off.

A big thanks, to all of you, who have posted here. I never really appreciated the meaning of the word solidarity until now.