Feminism chat for right wingers

Just popping in to say hello. I’m politically central (member of the Lib Dem party), but I’m a feminist first and foremost.

Personally I think Justine Greening was thrown under a bus with the remit she was given regarding the equality act, and simply because she was the L in the LGB.

I'm struggling to think of any countries with a strong socialist history where women have done very well: individual women might rise to positions of prominence, but as a class women do not seem to have benefitted from left wing politics.

I would suggest you look at Scandinavian countries. I would also ad that women have never benefited from right wing politics either. Or if they have, perhaps you could explain why? Please don't say two prime ministers.

Misogyny like anti semitism is the prejudice that unites. If they can't agree on anything else they can agree on who should make the tea

Exactly. The problem with looking around the world at strongly right or left leaning regimes is that they are all patriarchal, and therefore women come some way down the list of priorities.

The small state, low interventionist approach of the right wing means that it will never bring about the sort of changes that we want to see (or so slowly that it will be our great-great-great-great-great-granddaughters who benefit). We've seen time and again that state intervention through legislation and / or tax regimes is the only way to shift behaviours in a meaningful way.

However, the left might talk the talk, but (in the UK) the might of the unions prevents the sort of radical changes that we need to achieve real equality. I'm struggling to think of any countries with a strong socialist history where women have done very well: individual women might rise to positions of prominence, but as a class women do not seem to have benefitted from left wing politics.

Great thread. I’m left wing but trying hard not to be just in an echo chamber on social media. So it’s good to hear from right wing women. First and foremat I’m a feminist, second I’m a remainder and third I’m left wing (currently voting Green). But I like Ruth Davidson, Anna Soubry, and ie always liked ken Clarke. Corbyn has been a massive disappointment over the lily madigon issue.

Tax credits created a trap though overall, although well intentioned.

Focussing simply on increasing minimum wage & increasing the personal tax allowance to equal a ft min wage amount, would remove the need for in-work benefits.
I'd like to see this done alongside increased childcare access & funding & increased child benefit.

The only welfare payments should be unemployment benefit, (more generous) disability benefits, housing benefit & child benefit.

I'd also like to see specific, mandatory courses, in the national curriculum directed at basic life skills such as financial awareness (running a basic household, understanding different credit systems etc).

Not sure where this fits on the left/right spectrum tbh.

Working tax credits also meant that those without children in low paid work got some help for the first time.

Thank you for this thread op! I belong to lot of FB rad fem groups, and I know in reality that I probably have absolutely nothing in common with the other members of the groups when it comes to political leanings (I am a Tory voter), but day in and day out I agree with, and support everything that is
being said in those groups, especially wrt transgender issues and self id.
For me, first and foremost in life, I am a woman - and everything else is secondary to that.

The low paid jobs came before the tax credits I was signing on in the late 90s (after the abolition of the Wages Councils) and there were jobs advertised in the JC paying £50 a week for a full time office job and no it wasnt a training job for a teen. There were £1 an hour jobs being advertised as well Working tax credits were brought in to address this.

www.heraldscotland.com/news/12577696.Abolition_of_wages_councils_and_threat_to_the_lower_paid/

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/labour-campaign-on-wages-councils-1462659.html

ald Macintyre @indyvoices Saturday 21 August 1993 23:02 BST

Click to follow
The Independent Online
"Frank Dobson, Labour's employment spokesman, is to launch an autumn campaign designed to warn workers of the pay cuts they face as a result of the abolition of wages councils earlier this year.
The campaign, which will target Conservative marginal constituencies, will seek to alert as many as possible of the 2.6 million employees covered by wages councils that they are likely to see cuts in their rates, ranging from pounds 2.59 to pounds 3.10 per hour.

Two million of the workers affected are women. Labour is committed to introducing a national minimum wage, which Mr Dobson yesterday insisted would have no long-term adverse effect on employment"

Capitalism doesn't mandate 'oppress women/keep women down".

Really? Until I see the day that all adverts have men doing 'wifework' and the odd woman is put in to 'balance' it, is the day I see capitalism not being the oppressor.

But maybe women like the misery of wifework - to outrageously misquote Mrs Doyle

Anyway. Right and left (and centrist) women might have differing ideas on how best to run the economy but we (women) all have a vested interest in doing our best to ensure that women get real oportunities and outcomes, and that our rights are not eroded.
We all have skin in the game, so let's not be derailed.

Should say " run out of town"

I was think pogrom.

Scandinavian countries exist within capitalism but don't consider themselves capitalist. Hairsplitting I know.

I think the patriarchy is ideologically neutral as demonstrated by the female doctors in the Soviet Union. Women get the job, the job becomes devalued.

Misogyny like anti semitism is the prejudice that unites. If they can't agree on anything else they can agree on who should make the tea and who to run out of time. Sad but true.

Capitalism is not an ideology so it doesn't mandate anything.

My comment was a direct reply to someone who complained about "Capitalist Ideology". Their exact words. Everything that has followed has been Lweji disputing my reply. Take it up with them!

However, 'women's work' has little value, people in caring roles, cleaning, childcare are paid low wages and treated badly. Capitalism places little economic value on these roles.

Nothing in capitalism says one way or another what jobs are most valued. And my ethos - and I'm sure others too - is that the goal should be to prevent certain jobs from being "women's work" not to artificially try to reward those jobs above their value and preserve the status quo.

State intervention does help women.

I wasn't aware anyone had ever said it couldn't. There's a little bit of straw poking out of your collar, there. .

Moussemoose You will agree however, I am sure, that Lenin said a lot of things. . As regards the Scandinavian countries you will again, agree that they ARE capitalist. The point being argued was that there's nothing more patriarchal than capitalism. I proposed a few real-world counter examples and since then a certain party keeps pointing at "scandinavian countries" and saying 'Not capitalist, low sexism'. They've as yet not shown any connection between their response and my point so far as I can see! Just clarifying as you seem to be joining the merry go round and I don't want it to just spin around in ever faster circles for no reason.

Capitalism doesn't even pretend to support women

FHCD has beaten me to it, but I agree with them. Nor is it supposed to. Capitalism doesn't care about gender. Might as well argue that democracy doesn't care about gender, either. (Although Lweji kind of did take a stab at that! )

Capitalism is not an ideology so it doesn't mandate anything.

However, 'women's work' has little value, people in caring roles, cleaning, childcare are paid low wages and treated badly. Capitalism places little economic value on these roles.

The Nordic countries have demonstrated when the state intervenes and changes laws to support women an improvement in the pay and conditions of women follows. The USA, the ultimate capitalist country has some of the worst maternity rights in the world.

State intervention does help women.

I'm not sure what you expect the government to do about women having children. Stop it?

Er..do men not have children then? Yes I'm aware they don't give birth, but they do become fathers.
I think you are missing the point oldman.
The pay gap exists because it's considered a given still that women will care for everyone (children, elderly)while men will continue through their careers unfettered.
You CAN legislate to try to prevent this (Denmark have with shared and equal parental leave ).
Women closing the pay gap DOES depend on men changing behaviour, and they won't unless pushed by such legislation, and ultimately by societal pressures, because, well, if I had a wife taking care of everything at home I wouldn't fancy stepping up either.

You seem somewhat confused, actually. My point is that we can't rely on employers' good will or commitment to feminism to close the pay gap. It has to come either through societal pressure (as if), or through laws.

I'm confused as to what you're arguing - yes. That's why I asked my question and you haven't really answered it. You're saying there need to be laws to address wage gaps resulting from women taking time out to have children. What, specifically, do you think such laws should do?

Erm... I wouldn't say (all) communist countries have pushed strong gender roles, actually. Can you give any examples?

The USSR literally gave out medals of "The Order of Maternal Glory" to women for having high numbers of children. And if you had nine you got the 1st Class award.

Still, I'm not arguing for Communism, Islamic theocracy, or Fascism.

No but you've been arguing against me when I replied to someone who said they couldn't think of anything more patriarchal than capitalism. So if you don't disagree stop challenging me on it with requests for examples of communist countries pushing gender roles, etc.

Capitalism doesn't even pretend to support women

But again, that comes down to the individual agency thing.

Capitalism doesn't mandate 'oppress women/keep women down".

Lenin wrote on International Women's Day, 1921, while "in Soviet Russia, no trace is left of any inequality between men and women under the law…this is only the first step in the liberation of women."

Lots of women were doctors in Soviet era, however, due to entrenched misogyny this only led to doctors being paid badly and treated with less respect.

Ideologically the left talks a good game on feminism but fails to follow through with actions. However, at least they say the right things. Capitalism doesn't even pretend to support women. Choose your poison.

Scandinavian countries consider themselves social democracies existing within capitalism.

They have significantly more gender equality due in large part to state intervention.

Cuba educates women really well and has very strong female representation in it's Congress.

Despite the very strong culture of machismo the state has worked to significantly improve the situation of women.

Erm... I wouldn't say (all) communist countries have pushed strong gender roles, actually. Can you give any examples?

Still, I'm not arguing for Communism, Islamic theocracy, or Fascism.
Can you convince me that pure capitalism is better than something like social democracy? Or socialism (as is practiced by most socialist parties in Europe)?

Are you saying employers should be made to do these things by law? I mean we're talking about your view that the Conservatives haven't done enough to bring about equal pay. So is that what you're saying?

You seem somewhat confused, actually.

My point is that we can't rely on employers' good will or commitment to feminism to close the pay gap. It has to come either through societal pressure (as if), or through laws.

But, I would very much like to be persuaded by you, or any other right wing thinker, that right wing policies work and contribute towards equality.

Can you point out any policies, or actual outcomes? Convince me.

Oh, and at the risk of repeating myself, capitalist countries have proven themselves more feminist friendly than others. You can take a look at Islamic Theocracies and Monarchies, Communist countries, Fascist countries - all of which have had heavy emphasis on pushing traditional gender roles.