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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Beginners Central - Transgender and feminism

31 replies

soupforbrains · 08/02/2018 19:53

Hi all,

Thank you all for being so lovely on my other thread.

I am aware that I may be leaping into the shark tank here and so I'm really really hoping that you'll all be gentle.

I find the trans debate on here interesting but also terrifying. I'm hoping some of you experts will kindly and gently lay out the basic roots of the arguments.

I have always been very supportive of LGBTQ rights, and am avidly against homophobia, transphobia etc.

BUT I do understand that a pre-transition transgender person cannot be considered to be wholly the sex which they identify as. I also understand that in certain situations (such as women's refuges, changing rooms etc. ) giving pre-transition MtoFs equal rights and access to women's only areas diminishes the rights of women AND creates the potential for greater danger and threat.

But, I don't understand why there is such debate, in the sense that I can't see any solution which gives all groups the rights they deserve without impinging on the rights of another group. Has anyone come up with a solution?

Or does all the debate centre around preventing the encroach upon women's spaces and rights? And how best to stop that?

OP posts:
LangCleg · 08/02/2018 20:50

In terms of social climate and atmosphere rather than legal changes: the coercion of lesbians via the cotton ceiling rhetoric must stop; institutions should stop promoting gender identity dogma to young people still in periods of identity formation; transactivists should stop threatening, silencing and no-platforming women who see gender as an external imposition not an individual inner identity.

LangCleg · 08/02/2018 20:48

The main debate is self-ID and the protection of single sex services where they serve a proportionate aim.

So, to balance the rights of women AND trans, there should be some gatekeeping (both medical and proof of commitment from trans person) before they can change their gender legally (which also changes legal sex). But people should be allowed to change gender. That way, the needs of both are served.

And even when someone does have a GRC and legal change of gender, there are still some areas where single sex provision is appropriate - eg right to request a same sex HCP to perform a smear test; no males in DV refuges; no males in women's prisons and certainly not if they have been convicted of sexual offences

thebewilderness · 08/02/2018 20:44

Can you mandate belief?
Can you codify into law the idea that some people can mind over matter themselves out of material reality and into the opposite sex and must be treated accordingly?
It is like transubstantiation. A belief that no one actually believes.
Will you allow people to drug and mutilate children based on this belief that no one believes?

Spidermama · 08/02/2018 20:38

"Define transphobia"? That's a tough call in the current climate. It seems to mean different things to different people. The heated discussions bear testament that we're feeling our way into uncharted waters at the moment.
Upstart Crow that's very interesting. Is this an area of expertise for you in a professional capacity or are you just interested in the debate?
For my part I'm finding myself increasingly drawn to try to understand these flashpoint in gender politics. Lots of questions but not many solutions emerging at the moment.

thebewilderness · 08/02/2018 20:17

I have always been very supportive of LGBTQ rights, and am avidly against homophobia, transphobia etc.
You need to be explicit regarding the rights you think Lesbians, Gays, Bisexual, Transgender, and Queer people are entitled to that they do not already have by law. Also please define transphobia.

UpstartCrow · 08/02/2018 20:08

The solution is simple, provide 3 spaces or services; men, women and all gender inclusive.

Theres no such thing as 'pre transition', because there is no requirement for men to make any physical, surgical or medical changes to be given the same rights as women.
There never was any such requirement. All they have to do is do what they were going to do anyway, which is live as a member of the opposite sex for 2 years.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_Recognition_Act_2004

The majority of men who have surgery retain their penis and just have breast implants.

The GRA - Gender Recognition Act - will allow any man to declare himself a woman by downloading a form and signing a legal declaration.
It is not possible for that to be done fraudulently as many people claim, as there is no legal standard for 'woman' when a biological man can declare himself to be one.
Gender - a feeling or set of expectations placed on you by society - will replace biological sex in law.
This has already happened in women's sports.

Gender fluid people can say they are male one day and female the next.
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/23/fluid-gender-policeman/

The proposal for the GRA (Gender Recognition Act) removes all sex based protection for women and undermines The Equality Act.

The Equality Act is the last peice of human rights legislation in the UK. It matters because as the Tories removed us from the EU they also removed all the human rights legislation, promising that our rights were protected by The Equality Act.

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