Beginners Central - Transgender and feminism

They're awful. Self-ID to get a GRC and at the same time removal of sex-based exceptions in the equality act for those with a GRC. Less gatekeeping for children, demedicalisation for adults bla bla bla (although they did stop short of backing surgery on demand). Also work with Sports England to 'help sporting groups realise that there are likely to be few occasions where exclusions are justified to ensure fair competition or the safety of competitors.'

I'm so sorry OP, I came here to give you some links and got distracted by that post

This article is great for understanding how we got here: When Women’s Rights Are #NotaDebate

This is a good rundown of what changes to the GRA, and other changes to the equality act that are being discussed, would mean for women & girls: SAGES factsheet.

The current proposals come from Maria Miller's Trans Equality Report.

Debbie - Of course that can. The GRA panel can today, and a court could in the future. For a start the process as described in the Scottish consultation is far more involved than "download a form to sign". it involves solicitor ID checks, statutory declarations which carry 2 year false statement punishments and at the end of it all you have is a GRC (which is not a form of ID) and new birth certificate, without changing your passport, driving licence, bank details electoral roll, council tax utilities, the list goes on, your not going to get far proving your GRC is not fraudulent.

OK, download a form and sign in the presence of a notary. Big deal. Nobody is going to get in trouble for a fraudulent statement. There are no material particulars against which to judge whether the statement is false. Having different details on other ID is neither here nor there - loads of us have different ID in different names because for example we've changed name on marriage and haven't bothered changing everything, we haven't changed name on marriage but some orgs have assumed we have and we're too lazy to correct them, we keep old names / make new names for professional purposes. This is legal as long as it's not done for fraudulent purposes.

If someone attempted to claim a trans person falsely signed the form because they hadn't changed their other ID they'd have a solid discrimination case because they would be being treated differently from other people because they were trans.

Also of course even if all their ID is in their new identity how does that prove they're genuine? What does 'genuine' even mean here?

How many GRCs have been revoked by the panel? Any at all?

and at the end of it all you have is a GRC (which is not a form of ID) and new birth certificate

I do agree it's not worth the bother of getting one. It's been pretty much obsolete since we got equal marriage. Which is why I find it very strange that we suddenly need to make the process stupidly stupidly easy. There are vanishingly few situations where a GRC makes a difference. Off the top of my head, AWS and prisons.

So fuck that shit.

Soup

Gender critical means that you see gender as separate from biological sex. Gender is a social system of power relations imposed on us by patriarchal society. Transactivists see gender as an innate metaphysical essence, a bit like your soul. So these are completely incompatible ways of approaching gender.

Cis is a term transactivists use to indicate that a person is not trans. Gender critical people find this offensive as it suggests they "identify with" their gender - but for gencrit women this is the same as saying they "identify with" the oppression of women.

Sucks, doesn't it.

Especially when there is a solution, but it has been refused.

@soupforbrains I have always been very supportive of LGBTQ rights, and am avidly against homophobia, transphobia etc

We all are! That's not a new concept and I am frigging sick of having to clarify that every time (not having a go at you, I understand you are trying to get your head round it). However women's rights are being actively eroded to facilitate a minuscule number of aggressive activists.

Unfortunately the demands of GRA/Self id are not compatible with WR - and the third space option which pretty much solves the practical issue at a stroke is not good enough - they want women's spaces.

So which group's rights do you prioritise more?

Others may differ, Soup, but I think the best campaign group at the moment is A Woman's Place.

twitter.com/Womans_Place_UK

www.facebook.com/womansplaceuk

They have a website but it's been hacked and will be back up soon.

You seem like a thoughtful, moderate and compassionate person, OP, and I think you'll appreciate the Woman's Place position, which is deliberately pro-woman and not anti-trans and includes gender critical trans speakers at its meetings. They have a central manifesto consisting of five demands aimed at protecting women's rights that must be considered when legislating for GRA reform.

You will see a lot of hostility directed towards this group by the trans extremists. It's precisely because the Woman's Place demands are so moderate and sensible that most would agree that Woman's Place has become top of the trans extremist hit list.

I have changed my mind about what I think the solution is, over the years. I now think (despite having known several perfectly nice trans people in real life) that we've already gone down a wrong path with the GRC, and going no further, ie rejecting self-id, is not going to solve the problem. I don't expect many to agree with me, but I think we should take the distinction between sex and gender seriously, and say:

• gender is bunk, and should not be given legal reality

• but you can't change sex. At all. Ever.

• we should retain some sex-segregated services, etc, and it really should mean sex, and asking for a birth certificate should be allowed in some cases (employment, for example)

• but we should, as a society, be a bit more selective than we are now about doing that, and look for other ways to make everyone safe wherever possible. Eg new buildings should have non-segregated toilets, with enough provision of cubicles with their own basins that noone is forced to eg rinse out a mooncup in a communal area. More expensive than what we do now, but cheaper and better than three spaces probably. Maybe there are more cases where mixed sport might work, segregated by height or weight instead? There may be other examples.

• everyone should be free to present how they like, do what they like to the fullest extent possible, be what they like, free from stereotyping. This mostly means rigorous application of existing equality law. Yes, it does mean that if you're male and your career ambition is to run a women's refuge you may have to pick a different career.

• probably the most controversial part: I don't think hormones and surgery should be available on the NHS to trans people, unless they are suffering from dysphoria and it is genuinely the most cost-effective way to treat the dysphoria, when the needs of the people with dysphoria compared with all the other needs of NHS patients. (In the current funding climate, I'd have the NHS do much less IVF etc too, and for the same reason. The pain of involuntary childlessness is real, as is the pain of dysphoria, but sorry, it doesn't rank highly compared with physical pain and death caused by long waiting lists for other conditions.)

A bold statement, care to back that up with impartial data which is relevant to the UK. It may be the case in the USA where medical costs are out of reach of many trans people, but that is not the case in the UK, which is relevant when discussing UK law amendments honestly.

Even trans rights advocates don't dispute that Debbie! That's the whole point of the change in language around "transexual" and transgender.

You don't need dysphoria, many men don't even shave their beards. You think they're having their dicks lobbed off?

The solution is simple, provide 3 spaces or services; men, women and all gender inclusive.

Hmm, not sure it's even necessary to that extent actually. It would be difficult to change in a lot of small business as well.

To me the obvious answer would be "Women" and "non women"

This is where the universities and the green party have got it all wrong. They've taken the only place dedicated to be a "safe space" and made it for everyone and left the men who don't have any security issues (just embarrassment) to their own space.

While I appreciate it can be embarrassing for men, it's not going to hurt them and it is something they would eventually get over culturally. Women have the only legitimate need for single sex only options.

Well debbie downer I suggest you get off your ass and do your own google search if you don't like what is on offer here.

10 year old data from the daily telegraph that at best self describes as estimates and the figures are based on the estimated population of trans people not the number who are transitioning or seeking access to single sex facilities. Its an estimate of those who might seek transition in the future not those who have transitioned and retained their penis.

PS previous post should read.

statutory declarations which carry punishments of up to 2 years in prison for false statements

www.bournemouth.gov.uk/councildemocratic/Statistics/Documents/JSNA/GenderReassignment.pdf

The GRA - Gender Recognition Act - will allow any man to declare himself a woman by downloading a form and signing a legal declaration.
It is not possible for that to be done fraudulently as many people claim, as there is no legal standard for 'woman' when a biological man can declare himself to be one.

Of course that can. The GRA panel can today, and a court could in the future. For a start the process as described in the Scottish consultation is far more involved than "download a form to sign". it involves solicitor ID checks, statutory declarations which carry 2 year false statement punishments and at the end of it all you have is a GRC (which is not a form of ID) and new birth certificate, without changing your passport, driving licence, bank details electoral roll, council tax utilities, the list goes on, your not going to get far proving your GRC is not fraudulent.

The majority of men who have surgery retain their penis

A bold statement, care to back that up with impartial data which is relevant to the UK. It may be the case in the USA where medical costs are out of reach of many trans people, but that is not the case in the UK, which is relevant when discussing UK law amendments honestly.

I have been saying no to trans identified males on this issue for 13 years and the response has been rape and death threats for 13 years.
As usual the men have overreached and the general public are discovering what Feminists have been saying no to for all these years.

The battleground has the wounded and weary staggering all over it from a number of years fighting from all sides. Its not 'emerging' - just news of it has been suppressed.

Hence the tone.

What Ikabod says. I'm very drawn to this emerging battleground but dismayed at the tone of it.

OP thanks for asking these questions. I too have been reading the threads on the Feminism board with great interest but get s bit lost sometimes with the arguments and terminology. It's been very eye opening for me - I was quite naive about the ramifications of some of the changes to legislation.

Soupforbrains
I'd suggest that much of the debate should centre around children.
Trans pressure groups have overreached themselves moving from offering legitimate advice / training about anti bullying to schools into 'enforcing' social change in schools - removing single sex toilets, changing language, gaslighting children into believing that they can change sex, eroding both boy's and girl's rights to establish boundaries. They are peddling fake statistics about suicide and promoting children taking body changing drugs while under the age of consent. Actively promoting social contagion and eroding safeguarding practice - without any challenge.

Parents and teachers need to speak up. We don't allow adults into schools to groom children in this way for any other reason - why have trans activist groups been given a free pass?

Pre transition and post transition are old hat now

Now it is Self ID. No transition necessary.