We act from deep and well-thought-out conviction. But...

They find new concepts scary

Male bodied people controlling and invading female spaces isn't a new concept though is it? It's one as old as time.

Yanno, men have been waiting for the uppity women to die off for 100 generations and I am here to testify that it will never happen. We will not submit to male dominance any more than our grandmothers did.

Also I am a bit offended that being in favor of women's right to bodily autonomy and safety is being characterized as being on the wrong side of history. These are the sort of men who burned down the first women's loo that was built in London to prevent women having access to the public sphere.

People don't like change. They find new concepts scary. Allowing women to vote, accepting ethnic minorities, voting in gay marriage, acknowledging trans people as the gender they identify with. These things always take time. There will always be those that resist but thankfully we live in a progressive society and change is gradually adopted. Or the resisters get old and die.

Have people forgotten that the vote was taken from women and they were fighting to get it back and expand it?
When trans advocates lobbied to change gender dysphoria from a mental illness like body dysmorphia, anorexia and bulemia for example, and make it a medical condition that must be treated as the trans identified person chooses it became obvious that we are dealing with men and their fetishes.

Which is only an issue if you believe that things only ever get better and never go backwards.

That's a really interesting point. I think for a lot of us born maybe post WW2 onwards and certainly upwards of the 1960s there has been an overall sense that things only get better (Blair told us that ).

Yes there have certainly been blips, a lot of the 70s and 80s weren't rosy but as someone born in the 70s I think I have held onto the belief until recently that of course the only way is upwards and progressive, especially where women were concerned.

I have wondered sometimes if being a 'Thatchers child' gave me slightly false ideas about the way of the world. Her politics aside I can remember being impressed as a child that in my country both the Prime-minister and Head of State were women.

100 years ago it was the suffragettes, 50 years ago it was gay people, these days it's trans people.

Except it isn't trans people, is it? It's transwomen - trans identified men - who are the ones causing all this shit and trying to take away women's spaces and steal their resources. And last time I looked men weren't an oppressed class. So, not like women or gay people at all.

And "50 years ago it was gay people"? Tell that to the lesbians now being bullied and attacked by transwomen for being lesbian.

Food for thought eh?
100 years ago it was the suffragettes, 50 years ago it was gay people, these days it's trans people.

"However, we are the ones opposing a change in the law, and in society."

Which is only an issue if you believe that things only ever get better and never go backwards.

Plus the '100 years' mob -- this is tiny compared with the thousands of years (at least) that the patriarchy has existed. Radfems never expected that the effects could all be removed overnight (with gradual steps at least unless we were going to really have a revolution....).

Anyway, I'm not scared by the wrong-side of history, I'm a scientist and I'll stick to the correct side of biology. I have our whole evolutionary history to fall back on as well............Plus objective categorisations rather than subjective always a good idea.

I want an autocarrot!

The suffragette wanted mostly their own spaces like public toilets for women that didn't exist until their activism... And equal representation in politics and public life. They did not create a whole belief system based on lies, like Transgender activists are doing.
Also, the women in the article were against other women fighting for votes for women, being handmaidens of patriarchy. So they have a lot in common with the handmaidens of patriarchy we see in this #nodebate debate.

Trans activism is the male-led backlash. Women have "too much" men need to take it back.
Radical feminists can see right through this and are standing ground, fighting for women and having to put up with handmaidens happy to give up everything to please men (men who say they're women).

So totally disagree with you, OP.

I'd not heard of that book Jelly thanks for the link.

Parents not parts in second paragraph

I wonder this. Will there be a horrible period of extra violence due to self identification, then more CCTV (some people are much more willing to sext so will more surveillance be considered that bad?), then stricter laws/sentences for any violence.

Running alongside that children being taught that although there are biological differences between humans each one usually identifies with one gender, that starts with how their parents treat them, teaching them about going to the toilet, then about periods... Sometimes someone decides that their parts made the wrong decision about their gender and they can then identify as the other gender.

Then people of all ages get more comfortable with seeing different types of bodies in places like changing rooms and that most of the time everyone just showers, gets changed and swims.

Unfortunately I worry that the first bit is utopia.

Bugger. Can’t even bold properly. ☺️☺️

*Um WiseUpJanetWeiss, males have XY not XX.

I'll blame the autocarrot.*

That’s very generous of you. I will blame the wine and the fact I need new specs.

JellySlice For the avoidance of doubt I entirely agree. I regard self-identification without surgery as self-indulgent nonsense - and I hope I would been one of those who a century ago combined an X-chromosome with supporting universal adult suffrage.

When I look at what’s happened in Canada, I feel we have to do everything we can to stop it going any further here.
There are a few TAs with a similar mindset as Morgane Oger, it’s quite honestly terrifying.
They want GC people ( but mostly Women) silenced and / or criminalised.
There’s no way I’m going to stand back and watch it happen, I have a feeling we have a huge fight on our hands

I think it is possible that in the future we may all be able to choose or adapt our bodies to the extent that transgenderism will mean that people can actually Self-ID and match their physical form to that. I would find that a bit crazy but If it happens then I could see a way that might work out pretty well across the sexes.

For now, am I sure I want to be fighting this and in this side? Yes. As much as anything I'm fighting against whatever it is that is making women afraid to speak up, making MPs even frightened of debating genuine concerns, creating a narrative that women are a violent threat to transpeople when in reality it is male violence that is more likely to be the threat. I don't want to live in a society that makes laws and decisions that way. That doesn't lead anywhere good, for anyone.

I wonder if we are heading for a new ' dark ages ', where science is lost and belief is all that matters.

A while ago someone linked to a really interesting post about this, I think on a footie forum of all places!

It was a very compelling argument.

Um WiseUpJanetWeiss, males have XY not XX.

I'll blame the autocarrot.

I wonder if we are heading for a new ' dark ages ', where science is lost and belief is all that matters.

There is a massive drive from the fundamentalist for creationism to be taken as fact and ' stop telling us what to believe'. It's coming from the US but it's here in small pockets.

The flat earth society is getting new members all the time.

No, they won't, Jelly. They will look back on all the trans cultists, and all the people rushing to medialise and sterilise children in the same way we look back and wonder how Jimmy Saville ever got away with it.

Who are the ones having to organise in secret now? Who are the ones called "ugly lesbians"? Who are the ones being attacked in public? We are. We're the sodding political descendants of the suffragettes, not the descendants of the ones who opposed suffrage.