Fucking hell, India Willoughby is seriously slandering Karen Ingala Smith

No,that’s true. I absolutely do not believe transwomen are women. Maybe I should rethink this.

Transitioned to what though? Not to a woman because that isn't possible.

It's because Mumsnet might delete our comments for 'misgendering'.

I’ve done it out of politeness as IW has fully transitioned. I don’t do it for those I consider piss takers eg. Lily Whatshisface.

Can I ask why people are calling India and other trans women 'she'? Genuinely curious and not meaning to goad. Is it out of politeness, or a belief that India really is a woman, or is it worry that Mumsnet will delete posts for 'misgendering'?
I think my fear is that everyone falling in line with the term 'trans woman' is what has led to 'trans women are women #nodebate' which would have been much harder to get to if we'd stuck with trans identified male from the start.
Also I find it strange that people willing to say India is male (online) would still then use 'she' which is just as much of a biological term as woman. I understand using preferred pronouns in face to face encounters where sex and gender aren't being discussed, but not in a gender critical discussion where a belief that a TIM is male has already been stated.

The thing is, if you are a straight bloke you are not going to want a sexual relationship with someone with a penis or a fake 'vagina' made out of a penis

Yes, true. IW had no chance when she tried to get Genuwine to kiss her but I don't think "Courtney" would have had any more luck either, despite being much closer to Ashley in age and appearance, whether Courtney had a taped up penis or a fake vulva/vagina (bit clueless about the details of the op). Apologies for the CBB references - I got quite into it

This is nuts. She is nuts.

Shit, if only India had told Malala that you can change your sex, she could have saved herself the inconvenience of getting shot in the head by the Taliban!

Ah well, you live and learn I guess.

I’m blocked too, what a fucking loser she is.

Beyond cowardly to block someone then go on a libellous rampage. Arsehole.

I read an interesting blog today which, for me, highlights perfectly this 'whataboutery'.... worth a read! victimfocus.wordpress.com/2018/01/03/stop-asking-me-what-about-men/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

*I mean, I get it that this is a rotten thing being trans means you have to live with. Everyone wants to be in a dating pool large enough that the odds are good you will find someone compatible to be with. I feel for them.

But it's not an excuse to call everyone else oppressors and bigots because they're not interested in shagging you.*

Also might help if the therapists and various other people involved in the transition process were a bit more honest about this issue, so that people were mentally prepared for the reduced dating pool before it hits. Realistically someone India's age should have been able to figure it out for themselves, but with kids it seems unfair to them not find an age-appropriate way to make it clear that this is a likely consequence of transition before any irreversible steps are taken.

Yeah the last bit was supposed to be 'sex.' Flatworms which can change sex. Gah, i need an edit button

I’ve just had a look at IW’s tweets, she can’t be serious when she says you can change sex but not gender. What kind of mental gymnastics are required to come up with that?

Actually I think that is in line with what a lot of kool aid drinking lib fems/handmaidens/TRA's must think. Because to them, gender is what is innate. It's spiritual, almost. Gender is the most important thing because it's how you sincerely, truly feel in your heart. It's your entire essence. Sex has been reduced by them to an invconvenient penis that can either be removed or refashioned as a female sex organ, or breasts that be bound with no lasting damage. It has no meaning unless you want to be regressive and reduce people down to just their genitals, you big meanie. It isn't who you really truly are and if you don't understand that you haven't kept up with science and read about the existence of intersex people or, I don't know, flatworms (??) or something which can actually, like switch gender.

Duh

it's just basic human attraction and actually quite nicely illustrates why the whole thing is kind of batshit

Gay men and lesbians have been coping with drastically reduced dating pools (5% of the population available to them compared to 95% for straights) without resorting to sexual coercion such as #cottonceiling or trying to rebrand sex as a sodding human right they're being denied.

I mean, I get it that this is a rotten thing being trans means you have to live with. Everyone wants to be in a dating pool large enough that the odds are good you will find someone compatible to be with. I feel for them.

But it's not an excuse to call everyone else oppressors and bigots because they're not interested in shagging you.

Can I add on to thisusername's great point there that if you're bisexual you aren't necessarily attracted to people with faux-sex-attributes either.
(I have seen assumptions that people who are bi would be fine with a partner transing, for eg)

Surf I agree. My dd was very pro “oh let anyone be who they want to be”. She watched a couple of episodes of B.B. and texted me “Mum, I’m watching IW. I get it now”.
She also said many of her friends were dismayed by IWs behaviour.

Not helped by Paris Lees and Munroe Bergadorf getting "facial feminisation" surgery on top of the fake tits etc. and having instagram accounts with loads of people saying "wow so hot!" blah blah. I really think IW thought that was going to be life for her.

The thing is though, neither Bergdorf or Lees have had a ton of luck finding partners either. Paris has written about how blokes they have got with have then been funny about it afterwards etc. All this 'wow so hot' stuff on Twitter is mostly just virtue signalling and 'trans inclusionary in the tweets, trans exclusionary in the sheets' stuff.

The thing is, if you are a straight bloke you are not going to want a sexual relationship with someone with a penis or a fake 'vagina' made out of a penis. If you are a gay bloke you arent going to want a sexual relationship with someone who presents like Bergdorf and Lees (both of whom I believe have breasts, 'feminine' faces from surgery, but have not had bottom surgery). Same for women - a straight woman is not going to want to get with someone who presents as female, but a lesbian doesn't like penis. None of that is 'transphobic', it's just basic human attraction and actually quite nicely illustrates why the whole thing is kind of batshit.

At least IW is trans peaking more people than I could ever hope to reach

They're sold an idea of what their lives will be like once they've transitioned. I think we're all susceptible to the idea that if we lose weight or buy a spiralizer or redecorate, our lives will be unrecognisably better and lived to the full. Difference is most of us just waste a bit of money and not much changes

Not helped by Paris Lees and Munroe Bergadorf getting "facial feminisation" surgery on top of the fake tits etc. and having instagram accounts with loads of people saying "wow so hot!" blah blah. I really think IW thought that was going to be life for her. If you look at the youtube video of Jonathan Willoughby doing a news article, it seems absolute madness that this middle aged man thought that was going to be his future.

I honestly think I'm in the Twilight Zone.

Is India in the middle of a psychotic break? I've seen a few TIMs online who are clearly disordered and disturbed and walked away rather than engaged because clearly it's a mental health and not a trans issue. I do the same in any highly charged social media situation where someone is clearly disturbed or disordered and can't be reasoned with.

India needs an intervention. Stat.

I haven't rtft but I am blocked by India - would it be possible, to put screenshot of India's posts about Karen on the #cbb hashtag and maybe another specific hashtag like #peaktrans or even #indiawilloughby, so we can have a twitter conversation, I am really annoyed that India is deliberately using their 'celebrity' status and twitters 'block' function to slander and steer debate about KIS and the work she does.

India seems to have forgotten that India was against self ID when it was about toilets, before India went into CBB. So clearly India doesn't mind women and children in refuges having to put up with Male-bodied people (where India is quite sure India won't be) - however when it comes to ladies toilets, India doesn't want Male-bodied people sharing the space with India...

Hypocrite, much?

I'm intrigued to know what sort of re-education India got from the TRAs following India's performance on CBB

I think there are sadly going to be a lot of trans people in crisis in the future when they realise the fantasy doesn't match the reality.

Agree, Ova. They're sold an idea of what their lives will be like once they've transitioned. I think we're all susceptible to the idea that if we lose weight or buy a spiralizer or redecorate, our lives will be unrecognisably better and lived to the full. Difference is most of us just waste a bit of money and not much changes. We don't go having surgery which severely reduces the number of people who would be attracted to us. India is so angry. He was sold this lie and no matter how many times he says trans women are women, he can't force anyone to believe it.