'Engaging trans people in swimming' (aka penises are ok in the lady's changing rooms, but transmen must cover their breasts)

The facts are that most pools I use have unisex Village Changing. At the pool I use in Barnsley there are sex segregated changing rooms and unisex family changing rooms. In all the changing rooms there's a rule of keeping cossies on except in cubicles. Some of the women I swim with use the unisex changing rooms because the changing cubicles are bigger.

Ah that's nice. Should I come to Barnsley to swim? It's a couple of hundred miles. When are the lanes sessions?

It's extremely unlikely that a trans person would want to be naked in such a situation due to their gender dysphoria.

The discussion about the GRC process is pointless unless facilities intend to ask for one any time a person who appears to be of one sex attempts to use the facilities designed for the other. There's no indication in the guidance that this is suggested, and many trans activists would scream bloody murder if it was. So, nothing to do with this particular issue.

And one of those doctors must be a gender specialist, i.e. a psychiatrist. They will insist on evidence before the sign any letters.

So what about the women who currently have to use changing rooms without individual cubicles, because their local pool doesn't have those? The guidance suggests that in that case trans people should still be allowed to use the facilities they prefer. Women getting naked in front of whoever thinks they belong in the women's changing room and cocks out if the person with the cock believes that that's where they truly belong at those particular facilities, then?

"Well it'll be fine for me" is not a well thought out response to this issue.

1. The Equality Act does allow for sex segregated spaces. These have to be applied for and have to show that it's a 'proportionate means to achieve a legitimate aim.' Since that can be achieved by requiring bathers to keep their costumes on except in cubicles an exclusion application would almost certainly fail.
2. How would I or anyone else know what is going on in someone's mind in a changing room or anywhere else? How do I know if someone is self identified, has gone through the GRC process or comes from Ireland, Malta, Denmark or Argentina where they have self ID gender recognition? What about if Scotland passes self ID gender recognition? Shall we develop a fear of tartan swimsuits?

An exercise in paperwork? Lol. Do you think a psychiatrist would be impressed with a utility bill? They want to see evidence that trans people are living 24/7 for 2 years in their affirmed gender. No breaks allowed. That means either having a job, undertaking train in or undertaking voluntary work in the affirmed gender. It means having a social life in the affirmed gender. It means taking part in sports and recreation in the affirmed gender.

It absolutely does not.

At present, you need a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria, confirmed by two doctors.

That is the first requirement.

The second, separate, requirement is that you demonstrate, via simple paperwork that you have been living as your acquired gender for two years. Here is the official wording from the government website:

Proof you’ve lived in your acquired gender

This proof must cover the required time that you’ve lived in your acquired gender. It should include original copies of your:

passport
driving licence
payslips or benefits documents
utility bills or other official documents

All documents should be in your acquired name and gender. The earliest document must be dated before the beginning of the required time.

www.gov.uk/apply-gender-recognition-certificate/documents-you-must-provide

There are absolutely no behavioural requirements at all.

An exercise in paperwork? Lol. Do you think a psychiatrist would be impressed with a utility bill? They want to see evidence that trans people are living 24/7 for 2 years in their affirmed gender. No breaks allowed. That means either having a job, undertaking train in or undertaking voluntary work in the affirmed gender. It means having a social life in the affirmed gender. It means taking part in sports and recreation in the affirmed gender.

That's good NatGrady59

So what about all the women who currently change in single sex changing rooms?
And how do you feel about those self identifying women with autogynephilia (men with a sexual fetish for being seen as a woman) sharing changing rooms with teenagers and women?

It is also worth noting that the Equality Act allows for singe sex segregated spaces. It's just that trans pressure groups are running round schools and organisations telling them that this is not the case and they MUST allow all self identifying women into women's spaces.

Yes of course. Swim England's guidance is about encouraging participation under the current law, i.e. the Equality Act 2010. The facts are that most pools I use have unisex Village Changing. At the pool I use in Barnsley there are sex segregated changing rooms and unisex family changing rooms. In all the changing rooms there's a rule of keeping cossies on except in cubicles. Some of the women I swim with use the unisex changing rooms because the changing cubicles are bigger.

How about you read up any three trans threads of your choice in feminism chat NatGrad and when you've caught up you'll be clearer on what the fuss is about, and what the equality act says, and what the existing legal exemptions are and all that?

You're about to find out that most posters are intimately acquainted with the ins and outs of the law regarding transgender rights and women's rights and how they conflict. And you're mistaken on what you imagine are the requirements of transitioning.

Don't people realise that in order to get one as things stand that they have to demonstrate that they are living as a man or woman?

Rubbish. Demonstrating that you are "living as a man or woman" is an exercise in paperwork. You send in documentation such as your driving licence that you've changed to be in your acquired gender; your passport that you've changed to be in your acquired gender; utility bills that show that the leccy company thinks you are of your acquired gender; your payslips that show you are employed as your acquired gender.

There are absolutely no behavioural requirements at all.

For the PP looking for ways to take action: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2995738-Gender-ID-bill-Gender-Critical-To-Do-List

Proposed changes to the law

The Transgender Equality Report1 made the following recommendations (among others):

Self-declaration. To make legal gender changes easier for trans-identifying people, the need for a medical diagnosis should be removed. Gender Recognition Certificates should be issued through a simple administrative process of self-declaration of gender identity. This would apply to adults and 16/17-year-olds.
The protected characteristic of “gender reassignment” in the Equality Act 2010 should be changed to “gender identity”.
No exclusion of trans people under any circumstances. A person with a Gender Recognition Certificate should never be excluded from a single-sex occupation or service for people of their acquired gender.
What does this mean in practice?

Currently, organisations offering single-sex services in sensitive situations may exclude people of the opposite birth sex if it is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.3 4 For example, a service for women who have experienced sexual assault could exclude a person who has transitioned to live as a woman from working as a therapist or accessing a women’s therapy group there.

Under the new recommendations, this would no longer be the case. A male person could legally change their gender to “woman” or “female” by self-declaration – no medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria or other assessment would be required, and they would not need to change anything about themselves, such as changing appearance or having medical treatment. This person would then be eligible to attend or work at the women-only therapy service in our example.1

FFS the new gender ID regulations means that anyone can decide to change their gender just on a feeling and you won't be able to challenge them! None of this being assessed by a psychiatrist and having to live as a woman for 2 years...

Have you read the thread NatGrad59 ?

I can't understand what all the fuss is about. Trans people have been able to legally use changing rooms in gyms, swimming pools, sailing clubs and other sports facilities since 2010 with the introduction of the Equality Act. Most leisure centres and clubs have sensible policies to accommodate the needs of trans and non trans participants alike. All that seems to have happened in this case is that the Governing Body for swimming has issued advice to encourage trans people to go swimming. When other sports did it there wasn't all this angst. I'm a dinghy sailor and yachtswoman and there wasn't this trouble when the RYA issued almost identical guidance in 2016. I read lots of posts saying that to access these facilities trans people should have gone through the GRC process and got a new birth certificate. Don't people realise that in order to get one as things stand that they have to demonstrate that they are living as a man or woman? How one earth can someone get any evidence of that if they can't actually take part in sports and activities?

As of this morning, there are still only 3 comments.

Given it is the DM, I can only imagine they are dealing with an absolute tirade of frothing at this, because there's no way their readership would keep quiet. I wonder if it'll make the print edition today?

@OlennasWimple

The Daily Mail put a "modesty strip" across Alex Bertie's pre-op boobs but not her post-op ones, so there isn't really a hard and fast rule on acceptable nipples.

It was Alex who put the modesty strip across her pre-op boobs, the Daily Mail just took the photo as they found it: twitter.com/Alex_Bertie/status/924686285616361473

So what about a pre-op TIM who identifies as a woman - do they have to cover their nipples or is it acceptable for them to wear Speedos/shorts? Perhaps they're gender-fluid & identify as a woman while changing but as a man once in the water. Who are we, the "cis-privileged", to confine them to one gender presentation for the duration of their visit?

The DM is pre-moderating comments (I can't believe that they have only received three - perhaps more will come over night once they have cleared them?)

It was surprisingly good for the Mail.

Maybe we will be seeing Kerry McDermott in the Times soon (that's where all the excellent gender critical journalists go Kerry)

Haha can’t believe emailing the Daily Mail worked!!

Bloody good article too 😀

Margot James MP is the Minister of State and the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport.

The Daily Mail article only has three comments. More might push it further up the page. Off to add one.