Woman's Place UK meeting in London, 27 Feb

I hope she did "listen and take notes". I do think showing up at all is a big deal. Can you imagine Corbyn doing that?

No, he's too busy posing for photo opps with the likes of Lily Madigan, Sophie Cook and Munroe Bergdorf...

Fully agree with you Libdem! I'm a centrist and feel really lost. Previously I'd have sat with the lib dems, especially with Brexit, but they lost me because of this issue. We need a female focussed cross party effort.

I thought Kate, the Scottish woman on the balcony, was amazing!

I could listen to her for days!

LIbDemWoman - lovely post.

Did you really say 'shit or get off the pot' to Sophie Walker?

She did! But Sophie had left by that point. Credit to Sophie though - there was a lot of booing of the WEP before she got up to speak so she could've just stayed silent and no one would've known she was there. It took courage to speak, but the discussion did then get a bit side-tracked with her and Heather. I can only hope that Sophie spoke the truth and she IS listening to women.

I was glad to see trans people like Miranda, Kristina and Debbie there, but even though they're decent well meaning people, their confidence and ease with public speaking really highlighted their male socialisation.

Glad I'm not the only one who spotted this. They all made very valid points, but I couldn't help but notice that they took up more time speaking that any of the women did!

Julia Long is pretty uncompromising in her views but again, fair play to her too as someone has to be.

Sad to report there was an altercation after the meeting. TRA in the luminous orange jacket grabbed a woman's glasses as she was exiting and the woman was left pretty shaken up. That's all the details I have, will update.

I enjoyed last night so much and was trying to find the MumsNet battalion afterwards. I was a bit start struck meeting Datun in real life. In fact meeting many people.

StoatofDisarray the Scottish woman on the balcony who gave the rousing speech and spoke about the Anti-abortion similarities is Kate, she is one of the women bringing Object! back. Someone said to me on here that Object is too damaged a brand, it made me think that if people give up because one person has damaged a brand we wouldn't have many institutions. It seems only women have to give up their organisations over the bad actions of an individual. Parliament's various scandals - keeps going, Catholic Church - keeps going, Oxfam - keeps going, ad nauseam. She also spoke in Edinburgh so should be on Youtube.

I was wearing the Pankhurst quote 'I would rather be a rebel than a slave' t-shirt.

I think the almost domination of party politics in the comments after the panel reflects that it is the parties which are doing this to us. The parties are proposing law changes and 'acting before the law' (a.k.a illegally). The audience reminds me of the Pankhurst argument - we are women from every party, we are women so we are connected to every home, we come from every class, we are a guerrilla army.

I thought it was important to have and to hear from the three TIMs. I noticed the difference in reaction to Julia and then the hepeating and a different reaction. Another thing, from my vantage point I noticed that all 3 TIMs had pre-prepared what they would say, they had speeches written whereas the women all spoke organically. I suppose that may reflect either that the TIMs were entering a more intimidating situation or male entitlement (a surety that one will speak so prepare a speech), or a combination of both.

I'm still on a high and can't wait until next time.

Hello,

I've name changed from my normal Mumsnet name!

I was the Lib Dem woman who spoke up about my experience of being hounded off the Lib Dem feminist's facebook group (an unofficial not official party page) for just pointing out that TERF was a misogynist term.

I honestly didn't feel brave speaking, I know that there was a lot of Labour and trade unionists people there and why not, because they started the discussion and they brought women together to discuss it? I think women are much more used to organising as a group in those organisations so it makes sense that they would be the ones to start A Woman's Place and I am so grateful to them that they have.

I've always been on the militant feminist wing of the Lib Dems and always been very frustrated to their approach to women's representation which is only now getting addressed in the party, because we lost ALL our female MPs when we were routed in the 2015 GE.

I've always known that sexism and inequality is structural, that I can't just decide that the patriarchy isn't going to make any difference to me and my life, that the difference between a woman who succeeds and one who doesn't is not down to the first one just trying harder. I am an extraordinarily privileged woman in this world and that is mostly, in fact totally, down to my good luck, not down to anything I have done to deserve it.

So, whilst my centrist political views around most party politics were in the minority, my views on women and the root of their oppression was largely in line with any socialist or trade union feminist. And in my experience of being shouted down for defending feminists by young men in a face book group that badges itself as feminist I was definitely not alone in that room; it was much easier to speak up in that room yesterday than it was on the facebook group of my own party!

I did not go there as a representative of the Lib Dems but as a very concerned woman, who happened to be a member of the Lib Dems. I watch with horror at what is going on in the Labour, Green and Women's Equality parties, I know that it is no different in the Lib Dems.

I do think (obviously) that it would be great if A Woman's Place could be truly cross party because I want to be part of it and I want more women who are Lib Dems or Conservatives, as well as from the Green, Labour and WEP parties to be able to come and talk about how to address this issue without being called a bigot.

Because, to my mind the issue of women as a sex and their erasure from public discourse and public policy making has to be addressed first. If you cannot see sex, you cannot see sexism, you cannot define the oppression and you cannot do anything about it.

Only if you can see and count women and witness what is actually happening to them as a result of their biological sex can you go on to discuss the best way to relieve that oppression. We may believe there are different things to do about women's poverty, health, the pay gap, VAWG and sexual abuse but we can't do anything if we can't see women.

I think Self ID will be apocalyptic for women. As was said at the meeting, all mainstream political parties are letting us down on this, we all of us feel politically homeless (or at least I do) and we need to come together as women to fight this threat to us as a group.

Sorry, that was a bit long but I didn't want to lurk or chip in under a different name pretending not to be me!

Thank you for all those who spoke, organised it and came to it - the banner put up made me feel a bit emotional tbh - it was a great evening, I had to leave a bit early for my train but I am so glad that I went.

Doh - I meant to say, upthread, that a conflict of interest clause, is an excellent idea. Not isn't!

The WEP has had several years to get to grips with this issue. They've been on here for a web chat, they have had numerous women telling them, they kicked Heather B-E out.

What ever the details of that, they certainly weren't supporting gender critical women by their actions.

It's not as though they haven't been relentlessly informed of the issue. It's not a bloody secret.

Sophie Walker can't come into a 350 strong feminist meeting, blithering about being slow and finally taking notes.

This might be a complex issue, but it's not bloody rocket science.

She could go home last night, sit on mumsnet for two hours, write a policy document and stick it on Twitter this morning.

Which is what I said before I told her to shit or get off the pot.

I hope she did "listen and take notes". I do think showing up at all is a big deal. Can you imagine Corybn doing that?

In the current climate of no platforming, speaking or listening to people is the same as "literal violence" so she's shot herself in the foot with some voters just by being there. The Green party post on Fb recently about being anti no platforming went mental.

Except, Valentinesfart, she didn't engage - she was brave to come, but she didn't say anything of substance, and after she said she was "listening and taking notes", I understand she left. (I've started a Dear Sophie Walker thread here in order to try and engage, although I don't imagine in a million years she will read it.)

Sophie Walker was there? Wow, I'm impressed. Good for her for engaging, I don't need all my politicians to agree with me but I need them to listen to me.

There was disagreement in the meeting! And that's OK!

Yes, this. This is the debate. We are having it. Nobody said it would be easy or comfortable. Miraculously, everyone still existed at the end of the night, including the shouty young women outside

I was glad to see trans people like Miranda, Kristina and Debbie there, but even though they're decent well meaning people, their confidence and ease with public speaking really highlighted their male socialisation.

Also this ^^

I think it was brave of the two TIMs to come and ask for support from other trans folk who also want to be feminist allies. Theybtoo could be a strong voice of dissent.

I think it's absolutely crucial that trans people who are opposed to the TRA agenda start organising themselves and find a collective voice, which may not necessarily align with the feminist position. I hope some trans people do contact Debbie Hayton and Kristina Harrison and help start a movement for themselves.

It would be so much more helpful than trans people coming on here one at a time to reassure us that they don't agree with the TRAs and asking that we don't lump all trans people in together.

'Shit or get off the pot' as a great woman once said.

I agree re language use suggested by Miranda, I think the idea of using 'transmale' and 'transfemale' is a really good one - recognising they are trans whilst retaining their sex.

So jealous! But well done everyone can’t believe Mumsnetters are having an impact.

Agreed. I noticed the same thing (Julia being warned against the language she used, but Miranda being allowed to get away with it), and it didn't sit well with me.

I also thought the Liberal woman was delightfully honest. I liked her, and I hope she comes to the next meeting.

I was glad to see trans people like Miranda, Kristina and Debbie there, but even though they're decent well meaning people, their confidence and ease with public speaking really highlighted their male socialisation. Which is all tied up with the issues being discussed.

Just thinking about what FloraFox wrote a couple of pages back about Julia Lobg being asked to be quiet while Miranda Yardley was applauded though they said the same thing - I think maybe it is because it is more powerful when those from inside a minority group define themselves. Not the same but the changing terminology for example of First People from Red Indian (agh awful) through Native American etc, has to come from within that group - so Miranda Yardley saying we shouldn't call transwomen she/her or even transwomen just feels - hmm not safer exactly - more acceptable than someone outside the group saying it. I think it was brave of the two TIMs to come and ask for support from other trans folk who also want to be feminist allies. Theybtoo could be a strong voice of dissent.

Anyway, just my thoughts on things. I find the language aspects of this whole thing crucial and fascinating.

Hello everyone! I had a great time last night: Datun, I saw you across the room (I was at the far end of the front row opp you in a blue jumper), and I had no idea there were so many well-known activists there. I tried to find the other mumsnetters at the end but there was a bit of a scrum at the exit :)

Who was the woman who said she hadn't witnessed such a vicious ideological fracas since the abortion act? She was fantastic. I was also surprised by Miranda Yardley's openness. And Lucy the firefighter was inspirational. I'm looking forward to the meeting at Millwall FC :)

If any of the organisers are here, well done, very well done, you lovely women!

Loving reading about the meeting. Well done Datun. Sounds like you're as articulate as a public speaker as you are on paper. You should do some telly interviews etc.

I hope those protesters had their warm vests on

Datun

Did you really say 'shit or get off the pot' to Sophie Walker?

Fucking awesome.

Can you tell us the full context of what what you said

Where I work, all reports need to have a 'conflict of interests' statement attached.

That isn't an excellent idea.

Making it a blanket policy means no-one can say they are singled out.

And having the policy in place at all will automatically raise the issue. It will have to be addressed. No choice.

I enjoyed it so much - was lovely to meet MNers I hadn't yet met as well as see again ones I had - though I missed plenty, too.

Lucy Masoud from the FBU was the standout speaker for me - although I loved (almost) everyone.

I think we now need business cards made with Datun's message on them, to give out to politicians: "Shit or get off the pot. Yours sincerely, Mumsnetters."

There was disagreement in the meeting! And that's OK! We can't be expected to agree on everything - that's what the other lot want, unquestioning obedience on everything. (I am reminded of something a friend said about Greenham: "ten women around the fire = fifteen different opinions on everything". And that's a plus, not a minus!)

I think I'm going to start a thread about Sophie Walker - I was really impressed with her courage in coming to the meeting, but less impressed by what she actually had to say.

That's what is bothering me about a lot of the advisory groups on this. So many seem to have a transgendered advisor whose word counts for more than that of others in the group. I think people's innate tendency not to want to offend a colleague comes into it.

Where I work, all reports need to have a 'conflict of interests' statement attached. Currently this means financial interests, but I think something similar might be needed for personal interests at stake too.