Woman's Place UK meeting in London, 27 Feb

It takes practice to learn to stay on topic and not be distracted by the old razzle dazzle DARVO.

They use they use total lack of empathy to floor the empathic. If you don't know waht that meanns that is the reason they do get away with it.

I do. Normal well adjusted people don't know how to deal with it. They don't see how manipulative these people are.

The joy of the internet is that it has unleashed the collective unconsciousness and made it the collective consciousnesses.

In normal words that means the truth of reality is there, available to all, we don't have to just sit in our own minds thinking if only everyone was sensible then sense would prevail.

We all have a voice and nonsense is now visible and the majority voice of sense will prevail, the sane voice that keeps this human race alive will prevail and will not give the fucking stupid the time of day any more.

We do not need KINGS AND QUEENS, PRESIDENTS,LEADERS. Game of thrones was a fucking story. We are all in charge and sanity will prevail.

Let us perlease not be party political about this. I mean I spent a grand signing up for WEP in the same bra burning passion used to buy Spare Rib in the 70s.

Women are more than half of the population of the world. We are all in charge of life on this planet. Yhis tiny bunch of sociopaths are doing what hey always do. They use they use total lack of empathy to floor the empathic. If you don't know waht that meanns that is the reason they do get away with it.

What we are witnessing is the death of the whole ONE HUMAN IN CHARGE idea. It's a dead loss idea. The ugliest nastiest men get to eh top because they are the ugliest nastiest humans, and we put crowns on their heads and call them presidents. Its a dead idea. Humans do not need to be organised in a pyramid with a twat at the top, its not doing us any good any more. We are at our best when we work without a fucking chair, a leader, a CEO, this is a dead thing, it doesn't work.....

Hang on, are some posters complaining that A Women's Place are a bit TERFy - Tory Excluding Radical Feminists?

This is a summary Lily Maynard has written about the meeting:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3160410-Womans-Place-UK-meeting-in-London-27-Feb?pg=19

Deadline for consultation about the GRA in Scotland is 1st March. Anyone around the country can complete this however. Please do!

consult.gov.scot/family-law/review-of-the-gender-recognition-act-2004/

Agree with LangCleg - shaky voices are very powerful!

Also, with BlackForest - I think it is strange for many of us agreeing with articles in the Spectator - I even agreed with Rod Liddle the other week - and it almost makes us doubt ourselves.

The left, socialist angle is important - we will be strongest when all voices are heard and that is especially true of left wing ones.

Re being new to political meetings and getting to speak.

There is a skill/art to getting called. I'm not sure I can completely explain it but I have been to lots of Lib Dem political meetings and this was pretty similar. Although we don't seem to refer to socialism quite as much!

I thought it was a great meeting and in the context of political meetings it was very respectful.

When I first started going to political meetings I rarely got called to speak, in fact I would rarely put my hand up as i argued myself out of anything i wanted to say or ask - I had the feeling if it wasn't a totally original, ground breaking, worthy of doctoral study insight then I shouldn't say it.

I then noticed over time that the people who were speaking (mainly men) were rarely saying anything original or ground breaking but it didn't stop them voicing their thoughts!

However shaky I felt, I had to speak up because if I didn't put my hand up then they would only blame women not for putting their hand up as the reason we didn't get to speak. It's now rare that If i want to speak at a meeting, I don't speak. That said, if you are particularly anxious about speaking there is no reason you should feel obliged to. Give yourself a break, decide early on you're going to listen, then relax and enjoy!

So, I was not surprised to be called to speak on Tuesday night and I think that was down to experience of these sorts of meetings. I put my hand up straight away, almost before the chair asked and kept it up until I got the mic! And that is basically it, I think. I really was one of the first out of the blocks.

Normally, you're expected in these meetings to frame your comments as a question to the panel. I found it very refreshing at this meeting that this wasn't required - because all I had to do was bear witness. Which was so important because we are all being silenced and I am very angry about that.

My experience is that if you don't put your hand up until half way through or at the end, you are less likely to get to speak. I've not chaired a public meeting but I can imagine you create a virtual queue in your head.

Obviously now I have given away my tactics, chairs will know what I am doing and I will never get to speak again!!

Really good point, BlackForestCake.

I think it is important that there is a strong left wing voice in opposition to the trans cult – because the trans cult poses as left wing and argues "look, our opponents are in bed with the Daily Mail/Murdoch press/Spectator/Christian fundamentalists/etc". In a sense, it is validation for them if conservatives are opposed to them, in their heads it proves them right.

That doesn't mean that WPUK should be a left wing (only) organisation though.

I imagine as the issue gets more traction more voices will arise and it will become apparent how isolated the deranged biology-denying nonsense actually is.

Totally agree LangCleg

shaky voices are good enough

You know what? Actually, shaky voices are powerful. People who are afraid to speak but do it anyway often sway the most minds. And, wherever women are organising, the whole room gets a genuine thrill when a sister speaks even though it is daunting for her.

I thought the meeting was fantastic. Incredibly inspiring. I didn't agree with everything said by every person, but then I didn't expect to. I think it's really important that 'ideological purity' issues don't come into this.

As I usually say when I post on this issue, I'm not left-wing. I didn't feel excluded by the meeting, except at one point when someone talked about our new women's movement being a socialist network. I'm afraid I didn't take notes so don't have an exact quote. But I also recognise that she has every right to share her opinions and perceptions. The movement is what we make of it.

SwearyG - I sympathise with the anxiety. Politics can be scary and getting involved in activist spaces can be intimidating, even when you aren't an anxious person. But the answer is to just stand up and say:

"I'm not a socialist and I'm not a trade unionist but I am on board with this campaign and I think we need more people like me, who are not ideological but who think opposing self-ID is the most important thing for women right now."

Next time I'm at a meeting, I'll do this. Knowing that there might be others like SwearyG present who feel the same way but aren't quite comfortable enough to speak up is reason enough. I'm terrified of public speaking too, but maybe shaky voices are good enough!

I agree with what ArcheryAnnie and Pencils said.

With regards to Miranda, Julie, Venice and others posing in front of the protesters and posting photos I think its fabulous. On a wider level the TRAs have tried to scare us into silence, they use fear tactics. This has said it is not working anymore. On a personal level I have a disability & PTSD and can find it incredibly intimidating, when my adrenaline pumps I shake without noticing it, I carry earplugs to reduce noise when I'm going to the shops etc.. Those photos and what they did removed my anxiety and were like a dose of medicine. It is because of their behaviour, smiling in front of this anger, that I feel I can attend more events.

Haha LangCleg I don’t think I could even say that in a room with 5 people in it.

Oh awww! I do sympathise, honest. But the campaign will be steered by contributions from the floor. Whether you're from their political tradition or not, the WPUK founders are skilled organisers and campaigners. They will be aware of different voices and the point of the campaign is to be as broad as possible and take in as many women as possible.

Could you take someone with you next time? Someone brave enough to speak? Or write down what you'd like to say and ask someone kind and friendly-looking at the meeting to read it out for you? I would do that in heartbeat if you asked me and I'm sure many MNers at least would, too.

It's really important that everyone's voices are heard.

Thank you Igneococcus. As usual the comments are heartening.

Haha LangCleg I don’t think I could even say that in a room with 5 people in it. I did say it in an email to WPUK thanking them for arranging the meeting though. But I am shutting the anxiety down and continuing to be involved. It’s too important not to.

Here is Janice Turner's write up in the Times today www.thetimes.co.uk/article/even-a-party-for-women-won-t-take-on-trans-lobby-hncf8ljnn?shareToken=1ba4afd92428db7c019b7318ab96edd6

SwearyG - I sympathise with the anxiety. Politics can be scary and getting involved in activist spaces can be intimidating, even when you aren't an anxious person. But the answer is to just stand up and say:

"I'm not a socialist and I'm not a trade unionist but I am on board with this campaign and I think we need more people like me, who are not ideological but who think opposing self-ID is the most important thing for women right now."

Because your voice is as important as anyone else's at an open meeting. And the campaign can only take the best direction if everybody speaks and helps to guide it.

I brought up the slightly exclusive nature of the meeting upthread and what it’s morphed into really isn’t what I meant. This was the first sensitive political meeting I’ve ever attended and it took a lot for me to feel capable of attending. I have huge anxiety (clinical) and often have issues with taking space that I shouldn’t take up, feeling like I don’t belong. I was absolutely bricking it about dealing with the protesters as it’s something I’ve never felt with before.

That the speakers were mainly left wing was not an issue to me, it was the “we are”comments from them. We are socialists, we are trade unionists. That had me feeling that no, “we” aren’t and made me feel that maybe I was the wrong person for this kind of campaign. I do understand what they were saying, and that it certainly wasn’t meant to exclude, but when you have a real lack of confidence it is what you can hear (and then spend time convincing yourself that it’s just the paranoia talking).

I think what I was trying to get across is that some of the comments made me feel that maybe I wasn’t the right person to get involved in this, and we don’t want to be turning anyone off from this fight. That everyone is welcome regardless of their political colours. I’m not sure how this would be done, but I do believe that WPUK intends to be inclusive of anyone and everyone who cares about this issue, and ensuring everyone goes away feeling that they were welcome and are involved is surely important.

Anybody going to these meetings should expect a range of views as to whether or not to go further than that, a range of views on the best practical ways of achieving the WPUK demands, and a range of personality types making the arguments. It's normal.

It's more than normal, it's essential. Like I said upthread, one thing that distinguishes us from the TRAs is that we don't need to agree on absolutely everything, and that debate and (friendly, good-faith) dissention among ourselves is not just welcome, it's necessary.

WPUK was set up mainly if not exclusively for Labour party woman

No, not really. It was set up mainly by Labour party women. Important difference.

I am a bit taken aback by some of the criticisms on this thread. I realise many women may not have been to political meetings before - but this is what they are like. Some people are blunt and loud. Some people are hard liners. Some people more ready to compromise. People have different tactical opinions. Some have different opinions about different details of the policy they would like to see result.

WPUK demands have been designed so that they are acceptable to the broadest range of women (and male supporters) possible. And I imagine every woman attending or observing can agree on them and would also agree on three basic principles going forward:

1. the GRA should not be amended to self-ID
2. the EA's single sex exemptions should not be removed
3. the EA's single sex exemptions should be invoked more often

Anybody going to these meetings should expect a range of views as to whether or not to go further than that, a range of views on the best practical ways of achieving the WPUK demands, and a range of personality types making the arguments. It's normal. Your voice isn't being squeezed out: a range of voices and tactics are being expressed at an open meeting. That's how open meetings go. I know it can be a bit odd if you're not used to it but disagreement is nothing to be afraid of or get put off by.

If you come from a non-Labour background and want to see non-Labour speakers included on the panels, I'd have a chat among yourselves and reach out to ask possible speakers to contact WPUK. What about Caroline Farrow, the Conversative Catholic commentator? Which other prominent female commentators from the centre right have spoken up about this? Reach to them, ask if they'd like to get involved.

Well said, Pencils.

These people have been at the absolute vanguard of this debate for years now and everywhere they go there is a bunch of misguided children yelling at them and waving sparkly placards in their faces. They are targeted relentlessly on and off line. Humour is a very valid, non-violent response to this shit.

This spoke to me. I was a bit nervous about walking through the protest - it's a new experience to me, like I bet it was to others, of having women who describe themselves as feminists protesting something I've done. There was a point walking through when I realised I was OK with it (I paused for a moment and said "wake up, sister!" at the woman nearest to me - not my most effective argument, I know, but it felt better than just rushing past), and then when we were gathering on the pavement nearby, in order to accumulate everyone who wanted to go to the pub, it felt quite liberating that we all felt we didn't need to rush away in terror.

And these people don't even know my name yet! As Pencils said, they have been hassling Julia and Miranda, whose names they do know, for a long, long time. It felt pretty liberating to see a photo of them both laughing in front of the protest. It takes the sting away, a bit.