Female graduates now earn 22% less than male.

WTF is this thread??!?!??

first on google but very old

Male nurses same as male teachers I have seen / read that they get promoted very quickly and disproportionately make up numbers of higher paid roles including management.

So there's that.

They should just pay us properly. They don't want to. So they don't. They could if they wanted to.

Instead you get all sorts of old horseshit trotted out as to why it is "fair". With this gender pay thing, and even equal pay, the vast majority of people when the stats come out or individual stories are told, immediately start giving reasons off the top of their head as to why it's almost certainly all fair and reaosnable. Very very few people say oh that's bad it needs looking at. I think that most people have a natural preference to think that systems institutions businesses etc are fair and that any discrepancies are down to individuals, than to consider the uncomfortable truth that there might be systematic discrimination.

The trans stuff is beyond a joke on MN at the moment.

How much if this gap is down to nursing being s graduate profession with comparatively low starting salary compared to other careers?

Is OP calling for more male nurses?

I am a graduate and work full time. Over my career I have found out:

Pay discrepany between me and male colleagues including those more junior than me who I was training - this was pre children
Was threatened when i mentioned it (be very careful, we're not supposed to discuss salaries)
Was pregnant at the time so no leverage
Got fucked around on mat leave with various pay / hours related things about returning
Did go PT for approx 5 years in a different industry (though arguably this brings richer experience???)
Anyway
New role, been in it for some years FT, getting consistenly promoted
Again I know I am paid less than men in similar role who have less responsibilities

What can I do?
Nothing really.
We aren't supposed to discuss salaries.
I have tried to discuss it with a (female!) colleague who said that she thought it was perfectly fair that someone with (and I made it extreme just to see what she said) 28 years experience rather than 30 should be paid 30% less
And anyway "you've got kids" as if this was a catch all. Of course the mne involved have kids too.

All I can do really is leave. I don't want to leave. The whole thing is most frustrating.

That's just my story anyway I know it's not uncommon.

It seems disingenuous, if not utterly dishonest that the Fawcett Society chooses to quote questionable and self-selected survey results

They have awful form for this. Still, it’s gets published in a newspaper when some lazy editor can’t be arsed to read past the headline.

not my place to define you HelenDenver

And actually the work that was done by coalition govt on shared parental leave and flexible working to start to address the gender pay gap was informed by Lib Dem policy working groups. And they got evidence from trans women who had seen a reduction in their hourly freelance rates when they transitioned.

I doubt you'd consider me a libfem, Mrs McG, and I don't think the OP should've mentioned trans in connection to this either!

And this is why we need that lib fem board.
Seriously - you read a report about the gender pay gap (though in this case its actually the parent pay gap) and your first thought is to attack transwomen?

how exactly is that going to smash the patriarchy?

I can really go all day on the concept of choice (degree is in philosophy & politics) but let's assume I could have chosen to place all the negative career effects of becoming a parent onto my husband. How is that better? The overall effect on us as a family is the same. Also, how does it help all the other degree educated mothers who earn 22% less than their male counterparts? The problem is still there -
I would still care about it even if it doesn't effect me.

Same problem with not having children, that can't work for everyone. Unless you want a few years of no gender pay gap before the human race dies out. Totally valid choice...

I am still a graduate after having children.

But that's your choice, Thatstoast. Equally, he could have been the SAHP, you could have been the breadwinner and you'd be out-earning him. In fact, you could have avoided having children at all, and you'd be earning even more.

www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/articles/graduatesintheuklabourmarket/2017

I just went to ONS website on the strength of this thread and found this.

Figure 15a. Average hourly gross pay definitely higher for male than female graduates. Graduates between ages 21 and 64. Lower down it says:

"Concentrating on all employed graduates in July to September 2017, men earned on average £3 more an hour than women (Figure 15). This can be partly explained by the subjects male and female graduates with degrees studied. Out of the top five subjects associated with the highest average gross annual earnings, four of them were subjects which male graduates are more likely to have studied than female graduates: medicine, engineering, technology and physical or environmental subjects.

Female graduates being more likely to work part-time may also explain the differences in pay for male and female graduates. While working part-time should not affect a person’s hourly wage it may affect career progression which will in turn affect hourly pay."

If you then look at figures 13b and 14b you see the huge difference between male and female graduates with regarding to economic inactivity due to family/home commitments, or working part time.

"I don't know why this has been framed as an anti-trans issue but we need to work towards removing the motherhood penalty. Nobody wants trans women to earn less and that kind of rhetoric doesn't help anyone."

Agreed

It found the average hourly wages of men and women with degrees differed by 22% in 2016 - compared with 21% in 1993.

That's hourly rate. So men aren't earning more because they work more. They are earning more because they, overall, do not have to put children or elderly parents or strategically incompetent spouses before their career.

Women are still graduates when they become mothers. I didn't lose my 2:1 when I had a baby but I do earn less (p/h) than before I had him. It's no comfort to me that I was able to outearn my similarly qualified husband for 7 years prior. DH now earns 10k more after 4 years of being parents.

I don't know why this has been framed as an anti-trans issue but we need to work towards removing the motherhood penalty. Nobody wants trans women to earn less and that kind of rhetoric doesn't help anyone.

It seems disingenuous, if not utterly dishonest that the Fawcett Society chooses to quote questionable and self-selected survey results from that bastion of empirical research, the 'National Student Money Survey' instead of that of the ONS. Hmmm, I wonder why they've done that....

This is the different between the 'gender pay gap' and 'equal pay'. These women are only 'earning less' if you ignore the total number of hours worked. Even before children, men tend to work longer hours (and with longer commutes).

Except the STORY was from PA, the data were from the Office of National Statistics.

The latter link from the Independent is taking a different sample group (including those who have had children and, most likely taken time out of work or gone onto limited hours).

In fact, until childbearing, female graduates do out-earn men, and the gap is growing every year. An inconvenient truth?

Thanks for the link, UpABitLate

women earn more was from press association study

last year though there was this from govt saying female graduates earn less here

I was also under the impression that female graduates were slightly outperforming male until kids.

While this shows a big gap.

Wait, sorry - I'm sure the BBC headline earlier was eaxactly as per OP's thread title.
Right, that's pretty different then.