Tamsin sutherland

TRAs are about as androgynous as Sylvester Stallone.

But in all seriousness - I think that the Gavin/Dav(ina)e is a powerful image and story. It would be great as a gif, video or meme... It illustrates the point in a really helpful way for people distanced from the issues, but wanting to be politically correct and inoffensive.

it has been happening for far longer than most of us were aware

Definitely for much longer than I've been aware. And I have a longstanding trans friend who tried to warn me for ages before I finally caught up.

I think a lot of women have been busy trying to deal with austerity - either in their own lives, or fighting cuts on behalf of others.

From what T has been saying it has been happening for far longer than most of us were aware. A few of the Lesbian women on here seem to have picked up on it far quicker as it seems to have affected them sooner. I've been out of the goth/fetish scene for so long (20 years) that I've no real idea what it's like now but I do recall most were quite polite and got on with their thing in it. Where these hard liners have come from is a mystery to me too. I do know that in a lot of different areas of life extremes do seem to be growing in various ways which is interesting and scary.

I've been told that making this distinction is cruel, as is even pointing out that the Daves of the world exist.

Such gaslighting. It's not cruel. It's safeguarding. And safeguarding that comes with decades of research and knowledge attached.

It's not our fault that transactivists decided that they needed validation so much that we all had to genuflect at the holy altar of gender identity the second it was announced. It's not our fault that transactivists decided that gatekeeping was a heretical affront. It's not our fault that no gatekeeping means that all the Daves are now as valid as trans as anyone. It's not our fault that Daves are over-represented in the proportion of men who perpetrate domestic abuse and sexual offences.

The transactivists insisted that entry to their cohort should be so open as to include Daves and all the sexual offending that comes with them. And so it's all on them now it's backfiring.

They seem to be totally unaware that what they're really doing is shouting PENISES MUST BE MADE HAPPY AT ALL TIMES all over social media.

Yes, that is kind of weird as there are IMO a lot of far more important issues that they could be talking about than Dave who sometimes likes to be Davina and gets off on it not being able to go in the ladies. Not sure when it became a more worthwhile crusade than say the ice sheets in the arctic melting. After all nobody will be able to go in the ladies if it's 50 feet under water will they?

Yes I was a teen in the eighties, grew up with Boy George, Duran Duran etc and thought men wearing makeup was fabulous! I was also involved in the fetish scene in London some years ago and met quite a few transgender pp who , although sometimes were a bit narcissistic, were absolutely fine and definitely did not hate women.

I'm utterly bewildered as to where this new crop of hard line, women hating pp have come from? How did this start and how did we end up in this terrifying place? Does anyone know??

It was rather disconcerting to wake up one day and find the internet full of kids screaming about how the Daves were Real True Women and also More Woman Than you and we should center them in feminism. Lack of life experience really isn't helping there.

Oh dear, neo Marxism, Frankfurt school, Western Civilization,, cultural Marxism - these are the obsessions of the neo fascists. Makes me very uncomfortable to see feminists fawning over such spoutage.

I'm late 40's so went through all the new romantic and goth scene and yes there is a fairly distinct difference between the androgyny and the cross dressing that you feel uncomfortable with. I've come across both in my time. Everyone knew the Daves existed and to avoid them. The thought that we might not even be able to challenge that kind of behaviour fills me with dread.

I'm a decade ish younger, but me too. Androgynous men are great. TRAs are about as androgynous as Sylvester Stallone.

I've been trying to explain the difference between a cross dresser and a man who just sometimes wears certain items that are usually associated with women, and the things I keep coming back to are a. it's about wearing the clothes being arousing for the cross dresser and b. forcing others to participate is part of the appeal. Which makes it pretty clear why we're mostly fine with Gavin who just really likes silky flouncy shirts/wears eyeliner because he's vain and it makes his eyes look pretty but mostly deeply uncomfortable around Dave who calls himself Davina when he puts on his fishnets and leopard skin mini and hangs around the women's bogs attempting to get women to engage with him (then wanks to the memory later).

I've been told that making this distinction is cruel, as is even pointing out that the Daves of the world exist.

I too come from a scene where boys in make up was common and not a novelty. Had quite a few boyfriends that did and no, none of them ever felt that they needed to invade women's spaces at all. They certainly would never have felt they needed a career as a rape crisis counsellor!

It's weird that we've even ended up having this debate at all. I feel that I've just been removed from an environment where common sense prevails and into an alternate reality...

Is that enough, though? Just a few very powerful men for whom this is all very exciting?

That, plus the fact that the agenda is a socially conservative one so likely to appeal to those with existing privilege? Plus (in the uk) its potential to split the left and stave off a social democratic government?

Kittens I'm in my early 50s and went to school in London, but I'll leave it at that! I long for the days when we knew straight boys could look sexy in make-up, drag queens were flamboyant gay men, transsexuals were vulnerable people to have empathy for, and cross dressers were a load of self-obsessed wankers best avoided at all times. Life was so much better in the 80s!

There are definitely a few high profile AGPs, like Jennifer Pritzker. Is that enough, though? Just a few very powerful men for whom this is all very exciting?

@LangCleg

I've been half wondering if you're someone I know from high school, honestly. Would be hilarious to run into people from the past in such odd circumstances. I feel like having been in scenes where GNC men are common acts as a sort of psychological inoculation against this nonsense, since you already know that men can wear makeup, skirts etc without going into omg I will literally die if not addressed as "she" and invited to go change with the high school girls swim team mode.

I'd rather take my chances with the average bloke in the pub than with a man with AGP.

Kittens - I think we had similar youths! I have a similar past to you and I feel exactly the same as you. This is not about breaking down gender barriers. This is about enforcing them. It's about forcing women to ignore the alarm bells that ring in their heads for very good reason. And it's about forcing through social norms that will increase risk for women and children so that a few narcissistic men can have their pretend inner identities constantly validated.

There is nothing freeing about it at all.

I wonder if it's not a problem arising from global wealth inequality. There are a small number of people so rich that they could buy international political and media influence for whatever bee they happened to have in their bonnet. Perhaps it's just our bad luck that one or more of them has an autogynephilic bee and a desire for global validation?

Yes Kittens who is behind the curtain? I'm betting that it isn't the benevolent wizard of oz this time...

*And it is weird the way I have a physical response - hair standing on end - fight-or-flight readiness I have NEVER felt from all the gender-benders I've been hanging out with for years.

A weird, new breed.
Perhaps it is the porn-sickness - there's probably not a man under 32 who hasn't grown up programming his brain with orgasms to endless woman-hating images on the internet.
You can sense they want payback for something.*

Yep. I've met drag queens, girly goth boys, 80s Adam Ant types, Thai khathoey - none of them ever gave me that sort of instinctive prey animal watch out for the tiger in the long grass feeling that some of the TRAs do. We instinctively know that these men are a danger to us, but are being brainwashed into feeling guilty about knowing, and punished if we admit what we know. The stuff being aimed at children combined with the idea that questioning a person about their gender in bathrooms etc is socially unacceptable is an attempt to prevent us from running away when we know we're not safe, or trying to seek help (which in any case has also been trained to rebuff our complaints and call us bigots if we do). We're being set up. So, again, the question is, who benefits from this, and why are they doing it?

I do often wonder if the whole TRA/Bromentum thing is a 'look over there' to try to distract us from the big stuff.

And I'm inclined to agree, but what? Who's pushing this crap, and what else is happening that the current bread and circus is meant to distract us from? This is the least grass roots movement I've ever seen. Most of the public is clueless, and then you've got a small number totally in favor and another small number strongly opposed. And yet major changes are happening, on a policy level, and the media is mostly onboard, in a way that I've never seen with any other movement. Why? Who benefits? The money and influence required to push this stuff through is coming from somewhere, and it's not a few lunatics on Tumblr and Twitter. So who's behind the curtain pulling the strings? It can't just be the pharma companies hoping that creating lots of people who till be on meds for the rest of their lives will make them a killing, though that's certainly part of the picture.

Wrong! I didn't mean to bold that DOH!

Some very interesting points here. I suspect many women who in RL you wouldn't describe as phobe anything. And we now find ourselves collectively saying WTF and being told we should just shut up and go along with it.

I suppose the phrase of tinfoil hat comes because many things seem too incredible to be real? We live in an age where we are told fake news abounds and we no longer know for sure what is and isn't real.

I look at this issue and from the threads on here I no longer know what new and horrible event is going to be foisted on us each day. When I first heard about it I thought the proposed GRA changes would be sidelined and quietly disappear and it would be 'as you were'. I see perfectly rational, smart women who cannot believe what is happening, who are being called all the names under the sun - just for stating fact! I see MPs who refuse to answer emails, I see women afraid to openly state their views and all of this ironically on the 100th anniversary of women getting the vote.

Thank you T for your time and your thoughts on this - it's been an eye opener!

I have been following the threads across this and other boards but due to being stupidly busy I haven't had a chance to participate. I would very much like to though!

To you all flowers

ps.
If I'm having a psychotic episode, just leave me to it. The nearest secure bed for women is currently several hundred miles away. No room at the inn round here.

Not a lot of people know that... unless they have a relative with a tinfoil hat in need of a safe place.

I don't think you've missed anything at all T

hipsterfun I think you are confusing Neoliberal Globalism with Capitalism.

More reading required methinks.

Thank you Traffig

My only agenda is to ask awkward questions... I just wanted to play a bit of music, go to the pub maybe, and perhaps have a close, special and intimate relationship with someone. Not much to ask I thought - but I've ended up here - doing this.

I don't think anyone actually voted for this - did we? Did I miss that one?