Thoughts on Jo Swinson?

I have met Jo while she was not an MP and she definitely isn’t clueless about the issues.

Since returning to politics I’m not sure how much she will stay true to her thoughts or let party shape her - she is definitely a career politician.

Jo Swinson is a career Lib Dem.

She was shit over Rennard - and watched four amazing Lib Dem women walk.

She was shit over her former colleagues Huhne and Hancock.

She is happy with self-ID - well, keeps quiet. As is her habit.

Whatevs. Really don't; have time to debate with self righteous loons and their straw men. Too busy overthrowing the patriarchy. You should try it sometime - it can be quite fun.

But are you really criticising Jo for being a woman who is a "career politician and very ambitious" Who are the misogynists here?

A couple of days ago a serial sexual abuser of young girls went along to Rose McGowans book tour about her experience of sexual assault deliberately to scream at her about her lack of active support for trans identified males. Is this a woman?

Imo Jo is a career politician and very ambitious. She won't put her head above the parapet on this or anything else controversial

MrsMcGarry if you introduce self-id how do you propose to distinguish between genuine trans people and men trying to access women's spaces for nefarious purposes? How do you propose to keep genuine transwomen safe from violent men when the latter can claim they self-id as women?

That doesn't mean I don't believe that there are issues which large subgroups of women suffer from which society needs to address.

Men who think they are women are not a subgroup of women. Your position is ludicrous. You do realise that the trans umbrella covers transvestic fetishism now? Who is genuinely a "transwoman"? Who doesn't make the cut?

Sorry this is just utterly ridiculous and you know it. How can we make a fuss about violence against women, equal pay etc. They don't exist because as you have just statef there is no such thing as a woman.

If you don't know what a woman is Mrs McGarry, I can't see how you can claim to care about their unequal pay, violence against them and inequality in healthcare funding.

It seems like you, and every trans rights activist, are vehemently AGAINST the idea that the entire group of people born with XX chromosomes, ovaries, and unequal status should actually have a NAME with which to refer to themselves and their rights.

Which smells like misogyny to me, but hey.

If I'm wrong - do tell me what we should call that particular biological group?

MrsMaGarry, I understand why you think it is insignificant. After all, the proportion of the population who will do this is fairly small though growing. However, the proportion of the population affected by men self IDing as women is approx 50%, and that 50% of the population will have fewer rights as a result.

Think sport, aws, as a start. It's very obvious that TIMs do better in women's sports than they do in men's.

Then think about the gatekeeping principle in safeguarding. If you do not have strong processes in place, predators target your system to abuse it. If predators can self ID as women when they wish to, then they will. In fact, it's fairly clear from the number of men transitioning in prisons that they already are.

It is t an insignificant problem.

No I can't. Because I don't believe there is one definition of a woman. a probably have more in common with some men than I do with some women. I am not "a woman". I'm MrsMcGarry. I have some feminine characteristics and some masculine. I have breasts, but I don't have periods anymore.

I refuse to accept someone elses definition of me by virtue of my chromosomes or physical characteristics. I define me. I allow others to define themselves.

That doesn't mean I don't believe that there are issues which large subgroups of women suffer from which society needs to address. And I do wish that more feminists would make as much fuss about issues such as unequal pay, violence against women, toxic masculinity, and inequality in health care funding, all of which are far more injurous to women and society in general than transwomen

I'm a lib dem but their stance on gender puts me off being more involved

So can you tell us what a woman is then.

I'm sorry but that is bollocks. Jo Swinson is not clueless about anything. with possible excpetion of Harriet Harman she's done more for equality for women than any politician in this country - shared parental leave, flexible working, APPG on Body Image. Because of her (and Duncan Hames) the first baby to be carried through the voting lobbies in the HOC was in the arms of a man ffs.

When will you realise that women who believe that trans women are women and don't feel our rights are threatened by them are not stupid or uneducated. We get your concerns. We just think you are wrong.

I'm a woman btw. One born with a vagina. I have breasts, which I've used to feed my two children and I even gave up paid work to be at home with them after my career suffered because of parenting responsibilities. I've suffered sexual harassment and recently divorced a sexually abusive man. I have had my fair share of "women's issues" I just don't agree with you that allowing trans women to self identify is a significant one.

I had a conversation recently with a friend who knows Jo Swinson. My friend had tried engage her in a conversation about gender identity. Her view was that Swinson was totally clueless about the issues. Hadn’t given it a moment’s thought and just didn’t get it. Disappointing.

And you think the trolls are all on the Trans side?

The current frenzy being whipped up against "violent TRA's" couldn't possibly be yet another example of extremism? I know many trans people. I've never met one who presents as the much publicised TRA's on social media do. Exactly who is hijacking the argument here?

I'm going to wait a little longer and see how the GRA plays out for the Party , with specific regard to stats, sport etc. but I think I'm done with the LibDems now - after 32 years!

Hi MrsMcGarry. Sorry you are getting some snappy answers here.

From your posts here you sound like a thoughtful person with good intentions. I am really behind the general vision of 'the liberal democrats exist to build a free and fair society.'

Until a few months ago my reaction to this thread would have been pretty much the same as yours. I have come to realise it's a bit more complicated than that.

Sorry you have had some snappy answers here. Lots of people here are feeling scared and angry for various reasons, and there have been a lot of trolls recently.

What a shame that's currently illegal...

There isn't a single Lib Dem MP that toes the party line. Put 3 Lib Dems in a room and you'll get 4 different opinions - it's kind of what we do. Jo is fully on board with trans rights -

She said: “I’m not sure how to make the Labour party see sense in so many ways (nor can a good chunk of their MPs). It’s very simple really: All WOMEN shortlists. Trans women are women, so obviously should be eligible.”

It wasn't just in the context of AWS. But on AWS, we debated (vociferously) at conference in March 2016 and agreed to have them. The policy as written allowed self id and no-one argued that it shouldn't. It specifically noted the "Liberal Democrats’ commitment to eliminating all prejudice and discrimination based upon race, colour, religio or belief, age, disability, sex, gender identity or sexual orientation"

IIRC two trans women spoke in the debate, neither particularly referencing their trans status but simply speaking as women who would be affected by the policy. And actually one was for it and one was fundamentally opposed to the whole concept of AWS.

" not discriminate against them all because of the actions of a small minority of them?"
?
Not sure what this means in the context of all women shortlists?
Also, interesting to see that the LibDems have adopted the Labour stance of someone deciding somewhere that self-id only is required, rather than a discussion and adoption at Conference?

She’s my MP. She’ll toe the party line on every topic.

Or she's fully aware and doesn't agree with you? Maybe because she knows and respects a number of trans people and is willing to see them as individuals and not discriminate against them all because of the actions of a small minority of them?