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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

AIBU to feel concerned for my ordinary trans friend

39 replies

Amoregentlemanlikemanner · 02/02/2018 20:48

She transitioned years ago, is well known in certain circles not for being trans but for her professional achievements, gently supports other trans people but wouldn’t tell a women’s group what their agenda should be nor attempt to speak on women’s issues.
And yes chopped off her male genitalia and endured lots of ops
Has spent years rebuilding family relationships and is happier
Would prefer to use the women’s toilet and would feel unsafe in the men’s (has been attacked/had stuff thrown).

Where does this polarised debate leave ordinary people like her?

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Battleax · 04/02/2018 00:48

women do a mental test of what they can tolerate, and they imagine the least threatening scenario.

I also think people are envisaging able bodied women, healthy women, strong women and women who haven't already been traumatised by assault.

They're also imagining grown women.

I've already stopped using shop changing rooms because I'm no longer confident of being able to challenge men's presence and I feel physically vulnerable, albeit still feisty. Feisty isn't much protection if you can't run and you can't fight back hard.

Lots of women will stay out of public spaces much more, if they don't feel safe.

BarrackerBarmer · 04/02/2018 00:15

I also think women do a mental test of what they can tolerate, and they imagine the least threatening scenario. Shop loos, somewhere like John Lewis, broad daylight, lots of people around. They crucially imagine a single male vs themselves, perhaps with plenty of other women around.

What they don't imagine is the late night, deserted, scenario. And they don't imagine several men (cos, what are the odds, amirite?) and them alone, in the minority.

Italiangreyhound · 04/02/2018 00:06

@TransPortFormerlyCherie excellent example about the doll..... I knew you were going to say burning building before I got to that but. Really good.

TheButterflyOfTheStorms · 03/02/2018 21:43

I think there is a big difference to how many of us would feel if we are somewhere that we are mixing or know of transsexuals/transwomen are around clubs etc

Absolutely. I was recently in toilets down a looooong corridor with a bloke quite close behind me. I did think, "what will I do if he comes in the Ladies after me?" Because WFT can we all do if self-ID hits?

EnthusiasmIsDisturbed · 03/02/2018 21:35

TheButterflyOfTheStorms

I think there is a big difference to how many of us would feel if we are somewhere that we are mixing or know of transsexuals/transwomen are around clubs etc

That is very different to let’s say at a station late at night using the toilets and you are the only one in there and someone walks in that you are not quite sure and then can easily lead to feeling in danger I just don’t feel girls and women should have have to feel that way in a space we should feel safe

OnTheList · 03/02/2018 16:31

Yes, this shit harms genuine transsexual people as much as it harms women. Whats really annoying is that before this new brand of transtrenders/MRAs appeared, things were ticking along rather nicely and compromise was on all sides. The activists today have made it so that..there have to be hard lines in the sand as give an inch and a mile is taken. It harms everyone except the activists, and men.

BigDeskBob · 03/02/2018 15:36

Even the nicest, most genuine MIT, is still male. What gives them the right to call themselves women and use facilities designated for women and girls?

If they think they might be harmed by TRA, then they should do something about it.

It really shouldn't be the role of women to protect MIT, certainly not at their own expense.

LangCleg · 03/02/2018 15:09

I have one good friend who is trans, plus two acquaintances that I'm friendly with, who are also trans. None of them are TRAs. None of them support self-ID. All of them fear what they see as an inevitable backlash when the extent of the misogyny and homophobia of the current iteration of transactivism can no longer be hidden.

I do feel sorry for them.

BUT - I have also had fairly blunt conversations with all three. Unless they speak out and unless they organise to create a strong alternate voice for trans people and stop allowing the TRAs to speak for them or leave the handful of who are speaking out to bear the brunt alone, they will have to assume some of the responsibility for that fall-out.

I know it's scary. I know the TRAs are vicious. But we women are in an existential fight. And it's MORE scary for us. We are being doxxed, threatened, reported to our employers, campaigns to no platform us and expel us from political parties are rife. We can't fight for them as well.

BarrackerBarmer · 03/02/2018 14:35

I'm sorry for your friend.
Truthfully, I think medicine and the law have failed transpeople by humouring and facilitating the idea that sex change is possible and is a solution to gender dysphoria. Rather than allowing the legal fiction to be created, with surgery and a GRC, that a man can become a woman, there should have been a better structure from the start. I believe these loopholes were created in full knowledge that this is a bad idea, but with the optimistic hope that bad law, and bad medical practice can be tolerated if it is statistically miniscule. It's a stubborn refusal to follow a path to its logical conclusion that has led us here.

And now here we are.

The solution should never have been to facilitate a fictitious change of sex. Medicine should not have trodden that path.

Law could have been structured to preserve the rights of people with dysphoria to live as the sex they are. And should have been.

GRCs produced an exception to a rule that was always inevitably going to end here.

This will now go one of two ways: the law will be forced onwards until it is meaningless and neither sex nor gender are concepts which can be defined or protected. Or, the law will be revoked, sex reverts to being what it is in reality, and the idea that people can be 'trans' will become a historical blip. Hopefully the law will then restructure itself to protect male people who wish to be perceived as female (and vice versa) without actually validating that belief or compelling others to.

Where humanity is concerned, we are all humans.
Where sex is concerned, none of us are anything other than our own biological sex, from birth to death.
Where rights are concerned, both sexes should have equality.

TheButterflyOfTheStorms · 03/02/2018 14:10

Have we been or it’s just that we haven’t really said anything becuase we felt we are being rude but still felt uncomfortable

I was completely comfortable in toilets with transsexual women and spent a lot of time in clubs and pubs where I was a lot.

But I didn't have a DD at the time and wasn't expected to have HCPs whose sex I didn't know. I know that accommodation was working in homeless shelters, where natal women were always centred and consulted about any accommodation. But I can't speak for anyone else.

Lovesagin · 03/02/2018 13:49

I do feel for your friend op, it's people like her who the TRA are also throwing under the bus.

I imagine she is very saddened at what they are doing.

EnthusiasmIsDisturbed · 03/02/2018 13:40

The really silly thing was we had a compromise system that worked pretty well most of the time - if you had dysphoria and were serious about presenting in the way society associates with the opposite sex, you could get a GRC. And most women were pretty polite and accommodating towards transwomen in, say, toilets

Have we been or it’s just that we haven’t really said anything becuase we felt we are being rude but still felt uncomfortable

See it’s that issue girls/women being uncomfortable when on a safe space and that’s irrelevant of how that transsexual/transwomen opinions becuase we are unlikely to know them unless we get into some sort of discussion

And who judges if they pass which is a very delicate and sensitive subject not one I would want to make

I do feel sympathy and sadly we do have a trans lobby that is no doubt making life more difficult for some trans people

YetAnotherSpartacus · 03/02/2018 13:34

Formerly - that's a lovely story. I hope that the doll gave her happiness and peace and kept her just a bit grounded amidst the beast that is dementia.

Battleax · 03/02/2018 13:30

It's a good analogy.

We're at the point where most people haven't seen the fire yet and think we're just being mean by standing on the driveway asserting that the doll isn't a baby.

TransPortFormerlyCherie · 03/02/2018 13:28

I've been thinking about a parallel to all this, hope it's ok to share.

I used to work as a carer, and looked after one lady with advanced dementia who had a doll that she held as if it was a real baby. She'd looked after a lot of babies in her time so I presume it was related. Anyway, we would carefully hold the doll, lay it down gently etc, "playing along" to some extent. Not in a condescending way, but out of genuine respect for her life experieces and kindness towards her illness.

I was never going to wave the doll around screaming "It's a doll not a baby!"
But if you'd asked me, really truly do you believe it's a real baby? Of course not!

And if it reached a point where it really mattered that it wasn't a real baby - say, if I was expected to run back into a burning building to save it - then I'm going to be honest and say NO. Too far.

Women have been pushed until we have to stand up and be blunt about where the line is. TRAs have made the line matter.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 03/02/2018 12:18

I feel for individuals like your friend too. I would be pleased to join with them in solidarity against the current madness. I will call them 'she' and respect them. But I won't fight their battles for them.

Primarkismyonlyoption · 03/02/2018 12:09

I think any doctor prescribing hormone treatments to reverse puberty will be subject to immense criticism when in the future the diseases arising fro. This become apparent. In the form of cancers and development disorders, memtal health issues and infertility.
My childs teacher would be delighted at the thought of a trans child. Many of those pro self id people have agendas of their own.

bobthebuddha · 03/02/2018 01:12

YANBU, OP. I’ll lay my cards out: have never had the remotest issue with trans rights from the early 80s, when I became aware of them through reading about Tula in my sister’s Cosmo magazines through to when I went to Leelah Alcorn’s vigil in London & saw the very real distress on the faces of the trans folk there. The high levels of depression, suicide attempts etc are very real. But things have shifted very dramatically recently and the furore over self-id and the screaming down of anyone who tries to say ‘hold on, we need to DISCUSS this’ is scary.

Was reading an interesting interview recently with Tamsin Sutherland (themselves trans and who I haven’t heard of before), who said this:

“The battle lines, politically-speaking, appear to be the sanity of those that understand we fall outside of the norm, and merely seek societal empathy for the accident of our birth, versus those that seem keen to use the power of their ability to CHOOSE to ‘identify’ as transgender as a societal cosh with which they can beat society into a different shape.”

and:

“In my opinion, the highly laudable attempts of the old school LGB community to gain parity in society have been thoroughly co-opted now by those for whom the postmodernist screed is all important. The ‘T’ of Transsexual quickly gave way to standing for ‘transgender’ and that’s when the trouble started. They hijacked the transsexual narrative, overtly co-opted our pain to book society on a guilt trip, and then thoroughly infiltrated the entire community with ‘queer theory’, again; straight out of the postmodernists’ handbook......The next generation down are being transed at ever increasing rates and it IS actually deeply homophobic. Right down to the age of four now, any sign of gender nonconformity is the green light to a lifetime of medical intervention.

At who’s (sic) cost?”

Corbyn et al are rushing into this to appear ‘ahead of the law’ without stopping to consider the ever present problem of the ‘law of unintended consequences,’ just as they did when they pushed through their Gambling Act and told those who raised concerns that they were being ‘elitist.’ That was an incredibly regressive act on their part, with the consequence of gambling addiction increasing (at what cost to children of addicts ffs?). The consequence of throwing aside the sensible GRC approach for self-id alongside the rush to chemically cosh and physically alter children with no option of reversal could be utterly catastrophic. It is NOT ‘transphobic’ to be concerned about this! Are we rushing to erase lesbian and gay people as well? That seems to be on the agenda here. And yes, many, many trans people like your friend will be shoved under the bus.

The drive to drug children at ever increasing rates benefits Big Pharma more than anyone else. I thought Corbyn et al were anti-corporatist? Or does the opportunity to virtue-signal override everything else? Rupert Everett said he was desperate to be female as a child but is grateful the world then wasn’t as now because he’d have been shoved on drugs, but after the age of 15 he never wanted to be female any more. He was slated for it.

Xenophile · 03/02/2018 00:51

I have a few transsexual friends also, one in their 60s is particularly worried because they’ve never passed too well and age is not being kind to them. They are so much happier in themselves since they transitioned years ago, but they’re now worried that the social compact whereby women were kind may go.

The whole basis of the recent trans agenda is to a) ensure that feminists are forced to centre the most vocally violent of them and have to put vital feminist activism on the back burner and b) will fuck up women and transsexuals lives irreparably.

GrockleBocs · 03/02/2018 00:25

I think that your friend will be a casualty, yes. It's vital that their voice is heard. They have been living quietly as a woman as most women do. The new variety of TRA/AGP have hijacked their lived experience as much as womens' experience. And it does us all harm

TheButterflyOfTheStorms · 03/02/2018 00:19

Transsexuals, women in general and lesbians in particular are being thrown under the bus for this agenda. Good luck to her but I think it's going to get worse, for everyone.

Italiangreyhound · 02/02/2018 23:46

By cult survivors I mean people wrongly encouraged to transition. I do not mean genuine transsexuals.

Italiangreyhound · 02/02/2018 23:42

@Myunicornfliessideways "They've just started hormones having been drilled in how to get reluctant medics to sign it off, they've been encouraged to detach from their family and reject them. Watching their suffering get worse and the train wreck ahead is horrible."

You are so right it is a cult. Maybe there are cult survivors who can share how they got out and what it means.

Myunicornfliessideways · 02/02/2018 23:26

share your concerns. It's one of the things that makes me so angry about this TRA agenda, it's as damaging to trans people as to women and the TRAs don't care or pay the slightest attention to their voices any more than women's.

Equally they damage trans teenagers and young adults. A friend of a friend is a young transman who is struggling with mental health difficulties and ive watched them being brainwashed on Reddit by the cult. They've just started hormones having been drilled in how to get reluctant medics to sign it off, they've been encouraged to detach from their family and reject them. Watching their suffering get worse and the train wreck ahead is horrible.