M&S changing room policy

@chocatoo Sorry but I just don't want someone with a penis in the same set of changing rooms as me or my teenage daughter.

Why on earth are you saying "sorry"?!

Do not be sorry. Do not make it sound like you are somehow in the wrong or that this is normal and you are an outlier.

Sorry but I just don't want someone with a penis in the same set of changing rooms as me or my teenage daughter.

Ffs this is all INSANE! Why was the thread deleted? Are our boundaries transphobic? Fuck Off, Fuck Off and FUCK OFF again!

I used to work in Evans as a Saturday girl when I was at school. We used to get a fair few transwomen in as middle aged transitioners are mostly big man sized and need the bigger clothes. Our changing rooms were 6 curtained cubicles very close together in the back of the store (not open to the shop floor.)
A lot of our female customers were extremely self conscious about their size. I used to do bra fittings (measurements only, but then gather a selection for the lady to try on her own). I can tell you that as a 14yo Saturday girl, I had no idea why the transwomen usually sought me out to measure them and help them out with bras.
To be fair to Evans, our policy was that I had to wait until all of our cubicles were empty before we allowed a trans woman in there. And then we ‘closed’ the fitting rooms until the TW left.
Until I was a good bit older, I hadn’t really understood why these men wanted tochat for so long about underwear. Particularly as all they really required was a bra that would go round them. Cup sizes weren’t exactly measurable.
I imagine most late transitioning AGP are shopping in Evans and M&S because they don’t fit into the teeny trendy stuff, so have to go for more matronly stores. (Obv the teenage shriekers with attitude and stubble are still scrawny enough to cause a stir in topshop).

But hey, we're all just a load of hobbyist "transphobes" with fuck all better to do with our time, right?

I've just seen a comment to that effect on the LM Independent article. I wonder if they had MN in mind?

Primarily because M&S changing rooms are well staffed and well lit. They all have thick and long lockable doors.

The one at Eltham yesterday was dark, no staff, there were 2 cubicles with lockable doors and the 1 wheelchair accessible cubicle just had a curtain.

I was in there trying on bras and would not have been happy for there to be men in there especially as I can only use the only cubicle without a locking door

Any man who is asking me to justify my boundaries should, by dint of that question, be excluded from my spaces.

BarrackerBarmerare you fucking shitting me????

I wish I was but nope.
There was a thread about it at the time but it was deleted. It was last summer.

Ova

@stoneagefertilitydoll How do I know that the male person coming in is a tru-trans and not some bloke wanting to peep through the curtains or plant a camera? Why does that even matter - if I'm saying that I'm uncomfortable with males in the female changing room, and I'm a female, why does a male get to override that, even if he really wishes he was female?

Because in @windchimesabotage's world, any woman trying clothes on in a perfectly normal manner (as I described in my younger self scenario) is relayed as the slightly more hysterical galloping across the communal areas in their pants (although, why the holy fuck should we not?!) and we should STFU and let anyone in to ensure their needs are met as a priority. Because in her world, all trans people are lovely kindly folk who wouldn't harm a fly and we are [ding, Ding, DING! We have a winner!] "transphobic" for suggesting otherwise.

The fact she is refusing/unwilling/unable to grasp is that there people already claiming to be trans specifically for predatory purposes is more than worrying. 1) because it's true and happening and 2) because it (negatively) affects her dear friend too, not to mention every other category of female who would like a penis-free zone when they are vulnerable and for whom we are speaking out.

But hey, we're all just a load of hobbyist "transphobes" with fuck all better to do with our time, right?

A few years back I worked for a small independent retailer that sold clothing and under garments (stockings, petticoats etc..) that seemed to appeal to a number of TIMs or perhaps the formerly known as TV. We ran into a few issues

They often took up a higher than usual amount of staff time either by phone or in person because of the in depth detail they wanted to go into discussing the clothing in relation to themselves. Some would venture further than that and conversations would take an uncomfortable turn with too much personal detail being revealed.

On one occasion a TIM (or maybe just a cross dresser- who can tell?) completely invaded my personal space by standing very close and attempting to engineer a conversation about how underwear feels on your skin under your clothes and what sort of underwear I preferred. This was my first real life #peaktrans moment as it was so clearly fetish driven and retail workers should not have to endure this. I think it would be very difficult now for any retail worker to object to this type of behaviour without being called a bigot.

They would quite frequently call and ask to visit out of hours, perhaps understandably, but this was totally vetoed as all the staff were female.

We only had the one singular changing cubicle so that wasn't really an issue and at that time a number would mail order anyway.

We also had a few issues with damaged clothing. Perhaps not a biggie in the grand scheme of things for a large chain but for a small retailer it is. Our blouses and dresses were just not designed for the broad frame of male bodied people trying them on. But of course in reality you cannot refuse anyone to try things on based on this. It is however just another small example of a female run business aimed at females being compromised by males. Similar to that bra company that was attacked on Twitter.

It's my experiences in retail of men who now fall under the TG umbrella that make me very concerned about self ID because the vast majority were very much not like our female customers in their behaviour.

Can't we do both?

Seriously I have had enough! In the words of Mrs Banks when are 'we going to Downing Street to throw things at the prime minister? (Actually I'd rather throw things at Corbyn)

It doesn't surprise me in the least. Fucker.

I just made the same face I did when reading the Paris Lees article about how sexy Tories are again. I've bought bras in that M&S! I mean, it was a long time ago, but still.

BarrackerBarmer are you fucking shitting me????

There already is a tim bra fitter.
In
M&S

Oxford Street I believe

And he'll go on and on about how he knows what's it's like to have breasts and isn't it wonderful being able to talk about breasts together, like girls do, and tee hee isn't it also funny when we touch each other's boobs, like girls do? Girl talk! Bonding! Girl talk always gives girls an erection, right?

The "what could possibly go wrong?" people really, really need to look up autogynephilia. It's far more common than gender dysphoria is, so guess which group of people we'll end up dealing with larger numbers of?

I support solutions for trans people that do not involve the pretence that male and female people are indistinguishable because .
You cannot support sex and gender both.

Hear hear.

I absolutely do not want a TIM bra fitter. But I bet this scenario will happen, because males who like to make women uncomfortable as part of their fetish will be naturally drawn to such employment.

I remember trying to take my boyfriend into the changing room at Selfridges with my in my late teens (because I was a dumb kid who thought it would be sexy for him to watch my try on lingerie), and as soon as the staff noticed they made him leave. While teenage me didn't see the problem (but I know him! he's lovely!), adult me does. Not quite sure how so many other women reached adulthood without the same change in perspective happening.

Would you support some kind of national polling on the idea, theoretically

Well, let's see.
Would I support a national poll on the question of rolling back rights for black people? Probably not.

I feel the same way about sex based rights. In fact I'd like to see them strengthened, a lot, and I wouldn't poll about that either.

I support solutions for trans people that do not involve the pretence that male and female people are indistinguishable because .
You cannot support sex and gender both.

You cannot preserve the rights of an atheist at the same time as making religion compulsory.

You cannot preserve the rights of a sex by removing the means with which the law recognises them as a sex.

Exceptions to the rule, the definition of sex, break the rule. And then the rule is meaningless and worthless and the people it protects are unprotected.

Marks and Spencer's will not confirm to me that in this brace new world my teenage daughters are entitled to an actual female member of staff for the bra fittings. I'm not done with them yet.

This is not acceptable and anybody not respecting my rights is not getting my money.

Last time I was in the changing rooms in Debenhams with my teenage daughters there was an actual man in there who's sole purpose seemed to be to tell his wife what she looked fat in.

Why are we putting up with this shit? It's not acceptable.