M&S changing room policy

deadringer

I am relatively new to all this, feminism and trans issues, and I can't understand why people who have concerns about self id are considered transphobes.

Because all and any dissent, or even questioning is not allowed.

Mumsnet is about the only place where people can talk about it. In an exchange of opinion, such as this thread.

It is a hugely important issue. I can't stress that enough.

The very definition of the word woman is under threat. And there are many people who would like to see it so.

This got nothing really to do with trans people at all. Many people on here know trans people, have family members who are trans, or children, or are trans themself.

It's about women. Their rights. Hard fought for and in danger of disappearing. The most important of which, at the moment, is the right to a voice.

The transactivist hashtag #nodebate is not an accident.

And yes, some of the people who are advocating all this are trans. But many, many aren't.

It's when you see people who say they stand up for women, quite gleefully prepared to abandon them, it becomes a real concern.

If you read any of the threads on the feminist board about this, firstly, be aware that many women are quite a long way ahead on this journey. The anger and fear is a slow burn, but it's very real.

Secondly, uncork the wine. You'll need it.

just want to keep women hating perverts out of all female spaces.How could anyone have a problem with that.

Option 1 - Think men's feelings are always more important than women's feelings and therefore women should just budge up and make room for men who for whatever reason would like to be in women's spaces.

Option 2 - Are also women hating perverts

Option 3 - I just want people to know that I'm right-on! I'm on the right side of history! Don't ask me to think too deeply about any of this stuff, that's not nice of you.

My God those links that Datun posted at 00.22, when you see all that evidence of sickos posing as women to commit appalling crimes all posted together like that, it's just chilling! I am relatively new to all this, feminism and trans issues, and I can't understand why people who have concerns about self id are considered transphobes. It has been stated over and over again by feminists that they have no issue with genuine transwomen, but just want to keep women hating perverts out of all female spaces. How could anyone have a problem with that.

Debbie - If however you want to limit the discussion on the impact of self ID on the prison population then it would seem reasonable to maintain the current approach which makes use of exceptions in the EA and GRA for treating trans prisoner transfers on a case by case basis with or without a GRC

That is not the current approach. PSI 17/2016 The Care and Management of Transgender Offenders makes clear that where a prisoner has a GRC they must be housed according to their legal gender. Discretion can only be shown where a prisoner does not have a GRC.

The only time a transwoman with a GRC can be housed in the male estate is when their risk profile is so exceptionally high that a woman (old fashioned cunty sort) with a similar risk profile would also be housed in the male estate.

Testiculating his righteousness

"hence my need to 'helicopter' it around in women's changing rooms."

"And my penis is the divining rod of righteousness."

Or in fact "feminists are wrong because I possess the testicles of objectivity."

Shorter Jon - "I'm not sure why trans women are right, but feminists are definitely wrong!"

Jon66 wrote - "I was asked why am I saying trans people are discriminated against, but truthfully it would take too long too explain"

I'm sure transgender people will be grateful for your half-hearted level of commitment to their cause.

Yes let's be clear here. We're not talking about excluding intersex people. We're not talking about excluding transsexuals, or at least those of them who have gone to the trouble of obtaining a grc. We're talking about excluding autogynephilic and paraphilic men, and also sex offenders who are prepared to lie about their gender identity in order to increase their access to potential victims.

Other than 'these people don't really exist / don't really offend' which is manifestly untrue, what possible argument is there for allowing these men into women's spaces?

Why do people always co-opt intersex people into these discussions? People who are born with a genetic condition have nothing to do with gender dysphoria

I was asked why am I saying trans people are discriminated against, but truthfully it would take too long too explain

That's convenient

Jon66

Perhaps you can answer my question.

Since you're on the feminist board, what is the benefit of self ID for women?

It would be wonderful if you could, reflect your own need for a 'for reasoned evidence based discussion' in your argument.

What is the reasoned, evidence based benefit to women?

general discrimination suffered everyday by trans

Personally, I'm quite happy to discriminate against sex offenders, who are the subject of this "evidence-based" discussion. We're talking about safeguarding against sex offenders here, dear. Do keep up.

truthfully it would take too long too explain but with the requirement of the 2004 legislation requiring mutilation and medical intervention

Eh?

What on earth are you talking about?

A GRC requires that you be over 18, have presented as the opposite sex for two years, and have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria.

No surgical treatment required.

And trans isn't intersex.

#Maleviolence. This is so true.

Males are so used to framing their behaviour as the norm that they completely ignore the fact that 51% of the population simply doesn't behave as they do! Because we don't really count do we?

They don't want to publically acknowledge that statistically women behave better and that male violence is an unbelievably huge problem. A human rights crisis, as another poster put it.

I am also totally fed up with the film industry and how violence is glorified.

I haven't rtft, sorry, but are TRAs deliberately targeting clothes shops with their tantrums or is it just a coincidence coming on the heels of the Topshop story?

truthfully it would take too long too explain

How convenient.

Debbie 6666 it appears there is no place in this debate for reasoned evidence based discussion. I totally agree with your comments. There is no empirical evidence available to confirm the assertions of the discriminatory views of some of the posters here. I was asked why am I saying trans people are discriminated against, but truthfully it would take too long too explain but with the requirement of the 2004 legislation requiring mutilation and medical intervention which affects intersex disproportionately is a good starting point before moving on to the general discrimination suffered everyday by trans. I think some of it is about trying to create an atmosphere and society where we accept differences, in a similar way to trying to create a society where victims of rape and abuse can come forward without the victim blaming that has been part of our society for millenia. Anyway I'm pleased I'm not the only one enlightened and if that sounds patronising apologies in advance.

Debbie6666

Sorry, can you write that again? I'm not sure what you're saying.

Also, is there any chance of you answering my question about the benefits of self ID for women?

You might not like it, Debbie, but all the evidence suggests that a trans-identifying male is more likely to be a sex offender than a non-trans-identifying male.

That's what happens when the activism insists on widening the trans umbrella to include paraphiliacs such fetishistic transvestites. Paraphilias go hand-in-hand with sex offending.

You can't have it both ways.

Either the definition of trans is limited to old school post-SRS transsexuals - in which case you have a tiny and vulnerable population that most feminists would be happy to support.

Or the definition of trans is widened to include paraphiliacs under the guise of all this gender identity bullshit, in which case you have a much larger population, a large proportion of which has a strong correlation with sex-offending. This larger population presents a danger to women and girls and therefore feminists oppose it.

Which one do you want?

Here's the evidence of the Association of Gender Specialists to the Maria Miller enquiry. Evidence she chose to ignore.

The converse is the ever-increasing tide of referrals of patients in prison serving long or indeterminate sentences for serious sexual offences. These vastly outnumber the number of prisoners incarcerated for more ordinary, non-sexual, offences. It has been rather naïvely suggested that nobody would seek to pretend transsexual status in prison if this were not actually the case. There are, to those of us who actually interview the prisoners, in fact very many reasons why people might pretend this. These vary from the opportunity to have trips out of prison through to a desire for a transfer to the female estate (to the same prison as a co-defendant) through to the idea that a parole board will perceive somebody who is female as being less dangerous through to a [false] belief that hormone treatment will actually render one less dangerous through to wanting a special or protected status within the prison system and even (in one very well evidenced case that a highly concerned Prison Governor brought particularly to my attention) a plethora of prison intelligence information suggesting that the driving force was a desire to make subsequent sexual offending very much easier, females being generally perceived as low risk in this regard. I am sure that the Governor concerned would be happy to talk about this.

While I'm sure that incoherent ramble sounded better in your head than it reads you've still failed to prove your assertion.

Also, my study? Did I conduct it myself, then?

Angry.

But that is exactly what your study did. It ignores them entirely. Had it investigated that 2% and found them cis then it would have stood up to your test. But it didn't, they were ignored and the trans prisoners categorised as sex offenders because most prisoners there were not because they were.

Debbie6666

Except the Californian prisons study showed the same.

Transactivists are campaigning to be able to self ID.

This means, that they will automatically be given the rights of women.

No one is taking anything from them, no-one is denying them anything, they are proactively asking for rights that are not reserved for them.

On the basis that men who identify as women are the same as women.

There is overwhelming evidence to suggest otherwise. (Quite apart from biology).

I think I've done quite enough to support my argument.

But let's pretend I haven't.

What, in your opinion, is the benefit to women of self identification?

Men are very resistant to acknowledging that male violence is the problem that it is, and yet fathers still warn their daughters about it. I don't think that it's that they don't know, it's that they don't want to admit that they know because they all benefit from it in some ways, even the ones who aren't violent themselves.