M&S changing room policy

morningrunner completely agree, me too. I think the argument is that transwomen would put themselves in a statistically different category and say they're far less likely to pose the same threat you as the men you're referencing. I'm sure someone will have the stats, but aren't transwoman a statistical greater threat to women than other women, but still far less of a threat than other men? I don't know if that's a consideration for the policy-makers?

That's not what I said. I said I think it goes without saying that non-trans people of any sexual orientation would use the changing room associated with their sex.

Wrong.

There is a link to what happened at target in America. When they changed their policy.

Men who do not identify as women, filmed themselves talking to the shop assistants to clarify that they were allowed to go into the women's and walked in to make a point.

Filming it. And uploading it to YouTube.

There then ensued incidents of men changing next to women/girls, and filming them under the partition.

There are numerous men who will take advantage of a unisex policy. There are whole websites devoted to voyeurism and confirming which shops are the easiest in which to commit the crime.

So, on the one hand, you have regular voyeurs and predators taking advantage of the policy, on the other hand you have fetishist individuals lapping up the policy.

All for the sake of a few hundred men who have gender dysphoria, who I don't want in there anyway. And most of whom aren't interested in intimidating women in the first place. Are happy to use the men's.

If there's one thing to take away from this, is please, please stop being naive.

This is a policy FOR men. Driven by men and will be taken advantage of by men.

www.google.co.uk/amp/dailysignal.com/2017/03/16/its-not-fake-news-predators-are-taking-advantage-of-targets-fitting-room-policy/amp/

I've just emailed M&S to query their policy and state that if changing rooms were no longer segregated based on biological sex then I'd be shopping somewhere else. I also reminded them that women are over 50% of the population and transgender people are less than 0.5% and that it should be possible for them to create a third space.
Bizarrely I couldn't send the message as it apparently contained an 'offensive word or phrase' - this turned out to be the word 'sex' which I had to put apostrophes around. Sort of confirms my theory that we're in this state because the word gender is used as a euphemism for biological sex.
Oh and for all those people who are cool and groovy with mixed spaces then great - but many aren't and should be allowed privacy based on biology.

The constant "but what about lesbians?" stuff is so homophobic. Lesbians are women and were socialized as such. Even if they were in general capable of overpowering other women, which they're not, they still wouldn't be the threat that men are because they weren't raised the same way men were.

It's an attempt at deflection, and an offensive one at that.

OK Rat, I won't! I tried and obviously failed, so ...

An emoticon is not an answer Rat.

How can anyone have bodily autonomy if they are forced to change where they are not comfortable to accommodate men who say they are women?

I get changed in front of women every day at my gym. Some of them are certainly lesbians.

The key difference is that I don't go about my life being frightened of random lesbians coming on to be, which has never happened, funnily enough. Or attacking me. (And on the off chance it happened, I would at least stand a chance of fighting her off)

I also do not go about my life inviting advances and intrusive comments from men, but it happens, even now. All the fucking time. When I am fully dressed and look like a hedgerow. So the last fucking thing I need is to be undressed in front of them

I do go about my life taking precautions so minimise the chances of random predators attacking me. Because I have been. This includes where I walk, what time I go home at, etc.

It would be simply reckless and careless of my self to get changed in front of males.

It's that bloody simple

TIM claim to need to be in the women changing room because:

• they are women too, so have a right to be there. and/or
• they are simply not safe the men's.

So the first is about changing the definition of women and validation, the second is about male violence/behaviour. We are told the believe that only TIM are at risk from male behaviour, and women's concerns are unfounded.

I do believe that if there is a gender-neutral space available, then companies should legally be allowed to turn away non-gender-conforming individuals from segregated 'womens' and 'mens' bathrooms or changing areas.

Because:

1. it's not like the needs of non-gender-conforming are not being met and
2. companies have a duty of care towards every individual. Victims of sexual abuse, or those who for religious reasons cannot show their body in front of members of the other sex should feel comfortable too.

I'll be extremely angry if this gender-inclusive legislation leads to the end of women's hour at the swimming pool (or similar initiatives), because for some women this is the ONLY time that they can access these facilities. I'm all for inclusivity, but there needs to be consideration for all parties involved, trans or otherwise.

Do what you like with that Yet, don't answer them, ask for clarification, whatever you like. I'm not the boss of you.

Okay Angry, if you like.

But you don't think bodily autonomy is a right for anyone, Rat? If anyone is uncomfortable with it, too bad? What? Of course bodily autonomy is a right

mostimproved I guess those shops have made all their changing rooms unisex, right? So not a "third" space, but a single space in effect?

Sorry Rat, but my POV is that your questions simply are not clearly phrased or articulated.

Nice try, Rat, but you made your views on women's right to have boundaries just a little too clear this time.

"Then introduce it into men's changing rooms. Let them be the arbiters of being nice and friendly to transwomen."

And expect men to validate TIM? - that's women's work.

Oh, I know, but if it's offered and they refuse it then they're making their true goals very clear. And the response should then be, well, there's a space that's been made available for you, if you choose not to use it that's not the store's problem.

Your nice reasonable oh I just want people to explain this to me mask is slipping, Rat.

Angry I'm clearly in this for the discussion - I want to understand but I'm not one to simply swallow what I'm being told without questioning it. So if I don't agree, I ask. Not sure quite what you're taking me to task on to be honest, but I'm not surprised you are. I'm not falling into line quick enough I suppose; guess it's all those years of not simply doing what I'm told by men.

A third space wouldn't be good enough for some transpeople though. They would still try to get into the changing room they 'identify' with and kick off when they're told they're not allowed.

But you don't think bodily autonomy is a right for anyone, Rat? If anyone is uncomfortable with it, too bad?

Or offer a third space where nobody has to worry about passing or their privacy being violated because it's explicitly labelled as being gender neutral, and maintain women's and men's rooms for the people who want them.

But why would they look at you in a sexual sense, or hit on you

They wouldn't. That was the point. I thought you were referring to this possibility in your original post.

So people of any sex, sexual orientation should be allowed to go into any space and perv on anyone

That's not what I said. I said I think it goes without saying that non-trans people of any sexual orientation would use the changing room associated with their sex. And that until we can police people's thoughts, "perving" is neither here nor there. Do you not think that??

There are already shops in the UK that have unisex changing rooms - French connection is one that comes to mind as I was there recently, and I’m sure they aren’t the odd ones out.

Come to think of it, I don’t recall seeing a female sign outside a changing room in any high street shops - they tend to position them in the respective clothing sections so generally it’s self selective, but I always assumed anyone could go in any changing room in the store if the others were busy. Also what if a shop only has one changing room but sells both men’s and women’s clothes?

The whole point of making changing rooms trans friendly is because it is so, so difficult to pass as the opposite sex.

Then introduce it into men's changing rooms. Let them be the arbiters of being nice and friendly to transwomen.

I'm also not sure being annoyed or uncomfortable with someone "getting off" on something is a good enough reason to impose restrictions on the other person to prevent it. I mean sure, don't want someone to lust after your body, cover it up, but you can't poke their eyes out.

Your nice reasonable oh I just want people to explain this to me mask is slipping, Rat.

Has anyone really been in close contact with a women who you mistakenly thought was a man?

I know several women with pronounced facial hair as a result of polycystic ovaries, and whilst to me they're clearly women I've seen people assert otherwise; one woman in particular.