M&S changing room policy

One of my close friends is a transwoman and ive known her snce we were teenagers. Luckily for her shes traditionally attractive, young and has been taking hormones for a long time so generally her gender is never questioned. Ive never had any problems in getting into changing rooms and toilets with her. But it would be so horrific if we had. How upsetting for her, and really its her who is put in most danger as I think mens reactions to her when they realised someone has deemed her to be a man and sent her to their changing rooms or toilets is not going to be good. I know amongst male friends of ours who find out, even some of the guys who I had thought to be decent guys, react with disgust and anger towards her. None of our female friends react like this.

So when I hear about campaigns like this I think the real danger is to trans people from men, not sis people.

Interesting. I haven’t rtft but I had the opposite experience with M&S - I am a biological female, gender non conforming person and was buying a men’s suit for my wedding - would have been around May last year. Great, professional service, and I was politely directed to the women’s changing rooms to try on my waistcoat and trousers - as I would expect. The men’s are for male bodies, not masculine clothes.

I wonder if this policy only applies to people who want access to the women’s changing room?

There's no problem to a move towards unisex changing rooms...

... provided those changing rooms have floor to ceiling walls and lockable doors, and are large enough for customers to be able to see themselves in all views without exiting into a communal area.

At the point shops are willing to invest the millions upon millions of pounds to sufficiently safeguard women and girls using their changing rooms against voyeurs and worse, I will be against them.

Simples.

None of this is nice Rat. We are being called bigots and hysterical idiots right left and centre for simply being concerned about our safety and privacy, or maybe you missed that bit?

Your solution is good. The TRAs would hate it however, because they want the validation of being with the 'gurls'. And who is going to pay for all this? What about the communal changing rooms in sports facilities , locker rooms etc. ?

Wind You are right that the individual cubicles is a smaller issue, but the TRAs don't want this, they want access to all women's spaces, end of.

ratrolypoly because the issue isnt about security at all that just whats said to justify it. Its about not wanting transwomen to be accepted at all.

Id understand if this were an argument about a womens refuge etc

but when it comes to changing rooms I just think its a load of bullshit excuses to be angry about transwomen. Its a political point not one based in any practical concerns.

Whilst I think there are issues about self identification and the implications of that and I do agree they need to be discussed etc I just dont think that a big campaign over nothing, and one which hurts and humiliates transpeople is going to achieve anything for anyone.

I just dont agree that the people who are just trying to live their lives should be thrown under the bus due to activists on both sides arguing.

I agree with this; I'm all up for practical, real-world solutions if they're available, rather than seeking to settle the debate.

It's funny how all the lesbians attackers attack those who want males in female spaces.

That's not very nice is it, on many levels.

At the risk of being seen to "miss the point", could the underlying issues be merely circumvented in the case of changing rooms by mandatory minimum standards of security? Obviously it doesn't address any wider context, but would it be objectionable if it were taken on as a solution to this single issue? And if not, why not?

but pick your arguments and battles. M&S changing rooms is not really a space that needs protecting is it? No harm would really come to anyone in M&S changing rooms even if they were completely unisex because they have lockable cubicles and a high number of staff wandering round.

Why make genuine trans people suffer over this non issue? These are real human beings you are going to humiliate. These are real people who want to try on clothes but according to you dont look the way they should to be able to try on the clothing they want to in peace. I just dont agree that the people who are just trying to live their lives should be thrown under the bus due to activists on both sides arguing.

It's funny how all the lesbians attackers attack those who want males in female spaces.

And transwomen are male, btw, there is no 'protest', there is simply biology

I have never had a come on from a random lesbian

It's not necessarily relevant to this discussion, but I have 100% experienced this in sport, as have a good many of my friends! I remember one woman in particular who would make a beeline for any new schoolgirl to join the team (and we were all around 14 years old coming in at this level whilst the rest of the team were older, even ageing women) and was really sexually aggressive and physically intimidating. She was not the only one, but by god she was the worst! But you know what they say, one bad apple.

aren't transwoman a statistical greater threat to women than other women, but still far less of a threat than other men?

It depends what you mean.

The two main studies (and no, I'm busy so I'm not going to find an unpaywalled link for you - just search for yourself) conducted so far conclude that TIMs have exactly the same offending patterns as men. No difference or reduction post transition.

But that's crime in general.

Studies into sex offenders conclude that the most common paraphilia in the male cohort is cross dressing. About 50% of male sex offenders are also cross dressers.

Since the trans umbrella and self-ID campaign now includes cross dressers as bona fide trans, then yes, I think we can conclude that TIMs are at least as much of a danger to women as men, but quite possibly more of a danger.

datun ive actually been sexually assaulted by a lesbian and it was pretty horrendous. Made worse by the fact that no one thought it was a big deal and some even thought it was funny simply because it was a woman on a woman.
Im certainly not saying im scared of lesbians now or any such shit. And its true id be more physically scared of a man because they tend to be bigger are more capable of hurting me. But the event was none the less traumatic.
Personally I think its pretty awful being sexually assaulted by anyone and it can happen anywhere and from any gender.
You have to look at the likelyhood tho. Who has ever been sexually assaulted by a stranger in M&S changing rooms?? Its not very likely to happen at all. Like i said its usually very well staffed and all the doors have locks.

Ive been sexually assaulted in the street in broad daylight and on a tube train again in the middle of the day.

I just dont think peoples objections to this M&S situation have anything to do with the risk of sexual assault or being perved on. I think they are a general protest against transwomen being thought of or accepted as women.

windchimesabotage

Have you read the thread?

*Transwomen, statistically are an equal threat to other men.

I'm surprised by this, do you have a source?*

Here is the Swedish study. Showing that transwomen retain male pattern violence.

journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885

This is a newspaper report of a study done by fair play for women. Who found that up to half of transwomen prisoners are there for sex offences. Way beyond average.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/up-to-half-of-trans-inmates-may-be-sex-offenders-26rz2crhs

Wind, read the thread and look at the Target predators upthread when they changed the policy there. Also Datun's post on it.

"someone will have the stats, but aren't transwoman a statistical greater threat to women than other women, but still far less of a threat than other men?"

I've never seen any evidence of this.

Maybe not rat. But lesbians are often invoked. And I must've explained the difference hundreds of times. So forgive me if I'm coming across as irritated by it.

Apart from the statistical unlikelihood of an attack by a lesbian, I personally, don't feel the same about a lesbian finding me sexually attractive and a man perving.

As evidenced by the way I have just described it!

The sense of entitlement and objectification that is demonstrated by men is at the root of the difference.

Even if a lesbian literally had her tongue hanging out panting at me, I wouldn't feel like it was pervy.

Simply doesn't give rise to the negative feelings that lasciviousness from men does.

This just makes no sense. Its just seems to be complaining for the sake of it. It will cause more harm to interrogate people over their gender as they enter M&S changing rooms than it ever will to just let people use the changing room they want. Primarily because M&S changing rooms are well staffed and well lit. They all have thick and long lockable doors.
Very little chance of a random man saying hes trans just to come and perv on women. That is just very unlikely to happen and even if it was attempted would not get very far.

What people here are proposing about gender being challenged at the door is far more likely to cause trauma. I certainly wouldnt want to have my gender challenged when im just trying to try on some clothes. Why should I demand that anyone else does?

and yes I have been sexually assaulted and raped, and yes I have faced male violence. But this has nothing to do with that. I would be locked in my own private cubicle, no one is going to see my naked body or get anywhere near me. I would have the same private space I have always had.

"The constant "but what about lesbians?" stuff is so homophobic"

Totally is homophobic.

I have never had a come on from a random lesbian, despite hanging about in gay clubs for years and getting naked amongst them at sport events. In fact, when I first went to Uni sports, all the women were butt naked except my friend and me, struggling to change under our towels, like the nice good girls we were. One of the coaches said kindly, stop making things difficult for yourselves - you have not got anything hiding under there that the rest of us don't have?

And she was right.

Because women are not a threat to me

Of course #NotAllWomenAreLikeThat

Transwomen, statistically are an equal threat to other men.

I'm surprised by this, do you have a source?

Can we have enough with the what about the lesbians?

Just for clarity it wasn't "what about lesbians", it was "this can't be about denying someone the ability to think sexy things about you", because that isn't something we police. Hopefully that's clear.

People don't get to put themselves in a different statistical category, because statistics are not feelings based. Though they may becomes so if the GRA amendments go through, thus rendering the statistics useless for all practical purposes.

If there's one thing to take away from this, is please, please stop being naive.

Perhaps it is naivety, I'm open to the possibility. I'm not convinced, but I am open. And I'm listening. So thank you.

but aren't transwoman a statistical greater threat to women than other women, but still far less of a threat than other men?

Transwomen, statistically are an equal threat to other men. There is no difference in male pattern violence.

With the added complication of any man being able to say they are trans and, according to any definition, they genuinely are.

So transwomen are the same as other men, plus they now can include statistically more violent men.

98% of sexually violent crime is committed by men. Not lesbians.

Can we have enough with the what about the lesbians?