M&S changing room policy

rat I totally agree. Whether we like it or not trans people exist and we cant go backwards and we cant ignore it. We wont end up being able to have the discussions that we need to have about terminology and rights if we react in this knee jerk frightened and angry way to absolutely every thing that trans people try to do.
This M&S changing room issue is an absolute none issue. No girls will be put at risk from this. Maybe some wont feel as safe to go galloping across the communal areas in their pants as some pp was fondly reminiscing about, but to be honest I dont think thats a massive sacrifice to make to prevent transpeople being humiliated and put at risk of violence and ridicule when they are forced to use a changing room that they clearly dont identify with the gender of.

We should be working towards a way to make most public spaces both unisex and safe.

There is more of an argument to be had about important womens spaces such as refuges, medical facilities and centres for women etc. But thats a discussion thats never going to get very far if everyone is bickering over trying clothing on in M&S. Really we should be working together to protect both women and transpeople from male violence.

I do understand that people who were born women have had different experiences and need their own voice to be heard independently of trans women. But in this particular issue the fear is the same so surely we should be working together to secure the finances to make sure that there is a safe space for all of us ie enclosed changing rooms and good staffing levels.

isn't there some progressive solution in each of these scenarios?

I haven't heard one that is acceptable to transwomen.

The complaint is that they don't feel safe in the men's. But allowing any man into the women's does not solve that problem.

So a gender neutral option, would seem to be the ideal answer.

Except it isn't. Because it doesn't lead to validation.

So then you are left with the concept that access to the women's it's not about safety, but about validation.

Which is where I start to disagree.

Bellamuerte Fri 02-Feb-18 12:00:06
I'm fine with mixed changing rooms as long as they're supervised and have lockable doors. Unsupervised changing rooms or those with just curtains are too open to abuse

What about cameras being put in the cubicles, pretty sure it's mostly men that do this. Never heard of a woman being a voyeur yet anyway.
Why make it any easier for this to happen?

windchimesabotage

Out of interest, would your friend be okay with using a gender neutral option, if all three options were available?

By 'gay men' people are referring to androphillic transwomen. Who are attracted to men, not women.

Whether you think they are gay men, or straight women depends upon your definitions.

Many transwomen are gynophillic, meaning attracted to women.

Since 85% don't have genital surgery, they are no different to any other man. Except for the validation part.

datun but you cant tar all trans people with the same brush because there are a few intense activists? Thats like saying all feminists believe that 'all sex is rape' etc

Its being politicised out of fear. The extreme people are promoted to stir up fear. The extreme issues are talked about. Really there isnt that much to be afraid of here. Certainly with this particular issue. Its not going to harm anyone in M&S if people are allowed to use the changing room of their choice. But its been lumped in with all the other stuff and blown out of proportion.

The only reason any feminist is looking at prison statistics, crime patterns, fetishes, puberty blockers, is because how they are impacting on the rights and autonomy of women and children.

That being the case Datun couldn't we all just be campaigning for new solutions to these newly arising problems, rather than insisting that "everything's fine just the way it's always been and nothing needs to change", because some people clearly do think it needs to change. And rather than arguing the toss with them, isn't there some progressive solution in each of these scenarios?

I have literally no idea if trans is "real", I frankly couldn't care less, but if society is going in a particular way that I feel makes women unsafe I'm all up for finding new ways to fix that, rather than trying to "stop the rock" so to speak.

Does windchimes think that people who are young girls now don't exist, or..?

Individual changing rooms with big mirrors would make everyone except TRAs happy, so maybe those who're currently insisting that women shut up about our objections to trans women in the women's changing rooms should get to work on lobbying M&S and other stores to make that happen. Good luck dealing with all the TRAs who'll call you transphobic when you suggest it!

I'm fine with mixed changing rooms as long as they're supervised and have lockable doors. Unsupervised changing rooms or those with just curtains are too open to abuse.

@windchimesabotage shotsfired so you want to humiliate some people and put them at risk of male violence so you can behave just as you used to as a young girl? riiiight

No. I want to protect every other woman who might want privacy to try on clothes and check out their bodies without having dodgy people staring at them and getting who knows what kicks off it. If that upsets TRAs, oh well.

@windchimesabotage terfinater no that was in response to people saying that men could just say they were trans in order to come and perv on women.

That is exactly what the new risk of self-id is, and why we are not happy about it!

For instance if transgenderism was considered a third option.

Their own rights, and changing rooms, their own system.

And women maintain their own system.

I think terfinater is saying is that the people we would know as transwomen are in fact gay men, windchime. Lovely.

*RatRolyPoly Fri 02-Feb-18 11:40:23

I agree with this; I'm all up for practical, real-world solutions if they're available, rather than seeking to settle the debate*

A third gender neutral space is a fine solution. There aren't that many TIMs/TIFs at the moment, so one or two cubicles will be plenty. And my thought is that a whole load in one section of any store will be set aside so they will have way more cubicles than needed. Then any woman or man who cares not about the whole thing can also use GN spaces.
I suspect that they would go mostly unused by anyone as "passing" is important to TIMs/TIFs, an entire section of women won't take the chance, including me, and men won't want to either be accused of anything or used to validate.

I sincerely would not have an issue with floor-to-ceiling cubicles with, enough space and mirrors to adequately view oneself.

Which I think might blow a hole in your argument that this is about trans-people windchimesabotage

So can we just agree, no one in their right mind, least of all feminists, are persecuting a marginalised minority of men, for the sake of it.

I honestly couldn't have less interest in the workings of the trans ideology. Genuinely.

The only reason any feminist is looking at prison statistics, crime patterns, fetishes, puberty blockers, is because how they are impacting on the rights and autonomy of women and children.

If, tomorrow, everybody assumed the protocols that have worked fine up to now. Access to spaces on a courtesy basis, with the terms dictated by women. And the issue not being politicised in any way, I would never read about the trans ideology or transwomen ever again. I have zero interest in it.

This is about women.

Why should your life experience be laid bare to explain to someone APAB? You shouldn't have to do this to explain why you don't like it. Those who ask you to explain should hang their heads in shame.

In case anyone else wishes to ask M&S questions:

Mr Steve Rowe
Chief Executive
[email protected]

terfinater no that was in response to people saying that men could just say they were trans in order to come and perv on women.

Im not sure what you mean by equating that to 'gay men' tbh?

A third, gender neutral option would keep everyone happy.

What about a single, unisex option with adequate security?

shotsfired so you want to humiliate some people and put them at risk of male violence so you can behave just as you used to as a young girl? riiiight

Why make genuine trans people suffer over this non issue? These are real human beings you are going to humiliate.

When you say genuine trans people do you mean gay men?

@windchimesabotage Its about not wanting transwomen to be accepted at all.

One question. Can you please describe what you understand to be a transwoman/what they have experienced or undertaken to live that life?

Because I have a sneaking suspicion you are thinking of something very different to the type of person actually being discussed.

What I mean to say lang is we're not the financial managers of these shops. Our objection to unisex changing rooms or transwomen using the ladies can't be "they can't come in because then shops would have to spend more money keeping us safe".

The danger to women and trans people is from men so policies that allow men who say they are women into safe spaces put everyone at risk.

A third, gender neutral option would keep everyone happy.

assigned but TRAs are actually a very very small minority of trans people. Most trans people just want to live their lives without hassle and that involves using the changing facilities that they feel safest in.

Like i said I think its a case of picking battles not just having a general outcry. Even if you dont believe that trans women are women they are still a group who is at risk of violence from men so they cant just be shoved in the male spaces. Equally transmen are quite at risk from violence from men.

I think we should all be pushing for well staffed unisex changing rooms with lockable floor length doors and I dont really see why that isnt achievable?

@windchimesabotage M&S changing rooms is not really a space that needs protecting is it? No harm would really come to anyone in M&S changing rooms even if they were completely unisex because they have lockable cubicles and a high number of staff wandering round.

I know when I was younger (and more svelte and fashion conscious!) I would often go shopping with friends and we would try stuff on. One of us would often nip out, half-dressed/wrapping a garment round us to ask waiting mates for a different item/size. No point getting all fully dressed just to get re-undressed multiple times.

And then we'd come out and scrutinise ourselves in the full length mirrors invariably fitted at the end of the changing room 'corridor'. We'd turn this way and that and giggle and gossip about boys and how it looked and our bums and all the other myriad little things you do as young women with your mates. We felt free to do all that because we were SAFE in those changing rooms.

Can you honestly not understand how the sudden intrusion of men into that mix of women (young, old, disabled, able-bodied, religious, whatever) will completely change things? "No harm"? Riiiight.

We are being called bigots and hysterical idiots right left and centre for simply being concerned about our safety and privacy, or maybe you missed that bit?

I've heard it talked about a lot on here, but I've never myself seen it. Perhaps because I'm not on Twitter.

If women's safety in changing rooms is such an issue Lang shouldn't we be obliging shops to spend that money anyway?