M&S changing room policy

Let me just get this straight. It's humiliating and dangerous for a transwoman to try stuff on in a cubicle in the male section, because of the men around, but it's not humiliating and dangerous to women to change the rules so any man is allowed to go in the female section

No, obviously not. Who knew women had feelings? I thought that was only male people?

Windchimes you can't possibly believe that the benchmark for which men get to breach women's boundaries should be "people windchimes likes"

And of course women and men are different.

My PRIVACY and DIGNITY matter. My SEX matters, to me. Even if every inequality against women was erased I would still be physically, biologically different from men. And I'd still expect my physical boundaries to be respected. If you think women should deal with nakedness, menstruation, childbirth and all that goes with being female in the presence of men because they don't deserve dignity, it really begs the question of a. How do you not realise what a misogynist stance that is, and b. Do you think if your friend could be guaranteed his safety in men's changing rooms you'd stop pushing for him to be in women's? Dignity being irrelevant, as you seem to think?.

Your argument seems to be this:
1.Males are violent.

1. Women are not violent.
2. A man who looks like a woman is at risk with other men
3. Put him in with women
4. He is the exception to the rule of point 1

Except
He isn't.

Every transwoman has a friend who thinks they should be treated as exceptions to rule 1. And none of them should be exceptions.

I think calling her a 'gay man' is pretty offensive.

I don't believe your friend is a woman. That's a term for us adult human females. So there you go.

Hopefully one day women will not need protecting from men. Surely that is the ideal to strive for?

Yes of course. But what do we do until then?

It's not gentle harmless transwomen like your friend that we're afraid of - do you understand that? It's the men that pretend to be trans in order to abuse women we're afraid of.

ten years ago we'd have not had a problem tacitly accepting your friend into our spaces. But not now the TRAs have starting pretending to be trans in order to access our spaces.

and who has lost out - your friend, and us.

I'm fine with mixed changing rooms as long as they're supervised and have lockable doors. Unsupervised changing rooms or those with just curtains are too open to abuse.

Yes, me too.

Then we'll have the data we need to be able to determine how people feel about it, and what the risks are.

No you won't.

Should any crime be committed it will be recorded as being committed by woman. Not a man.

And women, many women who are uncomfortable will do nothing about it. We are socialised not to. They will simply put up with it.

I think we should all be pushing for well staffed unisex changing rooms with lockable floor length doors and I dont really see why that isnt achievable?

How about some are m/f, and some are unisex? Then you can hang out with trans identified males, and women and men who aren't comfortable with it can feel that their privacy, dignity and boundaries are respected and that their feelings count too?

Maybe we need to start fighting for sex segregated spaces for women all over again

Hopefully one day women will not need protecting from men. Surely that is the ideal to strive for?

That would be excellent.

Removing the category of women is not the way to do it.

We are already having men being appointed on all women shortlists. Removing women's political representation.

You are ignoring the inherent power dynamic between men and women.

A disadvantage that feminists have fought tooth and nail to address. With laws regarding maternity leave, breastfeeding protocols, (things that affect their biology), the gender pay gap, the rape within marriage law, etc.

If men can suddenly be women and control the narrative around all this, which direction do you think that is going to going? If fact, which direction is it already going in?

With Labour's CLP women's officer being a 19-year-old boy who says biology is irrelevant and if womem disagree with him they will be asked to leave the Labour Party.

Part of his remit is to encourage women into politics...

What I'm saying is that a. we don't know what most women think about being expected to share spaces like changing rooms with trans women, and b. if even some women don't want to then they shouldn't have to. If it was just one or two women you *might" be able to argue that they've been outvoted, but in fact no vote has been taken, and it seems to be more than a few.

Unisex isn't the solution just because you personally would be OK with that. Other women's opinions matter too.

ratrolypoly because the issue isnt about security at all that just whats said to justify it. Its about not wanting transwomen to be accepted at all.

Oh you're a mind reader?

M&S are in a perfectly fine place to try this out.

Remove the segregated changing rooms, make it clear that sex doesn't matter any more, and see what happens. Then we'll have the data we need to be able to determine how people feel about it, and what the risks are.

I'm sure someone will have the stats, but aren't transwoman a statistical greater threat to women than other women

No. There are no stats that prove that they're any less of a threat than any other male. They're not "other women". They're men.

Transpeople's desire to use the changing rooms of their choice does not conflict with the views of many women, this is a quite widely and intensely debated issue not just a given

How do you know this? There has been no public consultation on this. It is not remotely up for public debate. It's only in forums like his that women can air their views anonymously.

Ever heard: transwomen are women #nodebate

That's what weren't up against. No discussion allowed.

barracker but of course they should what do you mean? why should anyone be protected against anyone who poses no threat? this is just not how the future is shaping up to be im afraid. More things are becoming gender neutral less things are segregated. You cant go back in time. I view it as positive largely altho there are issues. Men and women are not completely different species the issue is behaviour. Hopefully one day women will not need protecting from men. Surely that is the ideal to strive for?

Windchimes, you may think your friend appears as a woman, but of course you can't possibly know whether other women perceive that.
It's very probable that they see a man and don't say anything. That is after all exactly what most women do when they see a man obviously attempting to pass as a woman. They say nothing.

I'm not male.
I don't care what people wear, their hair, makeup and clothing choices are irrelevant.
I'm the opposite sex to your friend, and if I refuse to share intimate spaces with the opposite sex that's my right. Whether you love your friend or not is not the issue. I love my dad, but I wouldn't expect you to shower next to him in the changing rooms at the pool.
Women's rights should not depend upon whether a man has been deemed lovely and harmless by his friends.

Shes not some sort of sacrificial goat for your views.

But women are being offered up as exactly that so as to indulge the nonsensical fantasy that men can suddenly turn into women.

RatRolyPoly Fri 02-Feb-18 12:30:57
We don't get to demand segregation just because we've come to enjoy it.

Why not? I enjoy not being in the male gaze. Why does my voice not count compared to mens voices?
Do you think women are responsible for the hijab? Why do you think many women choose to wear it?

Shes no threat to women.

But wind how do you expect other women to know that?!

None of this would be an issue if men came with a label. But they don't.

In fact male violence would diminish greatly if men came with a label. We would simply avoid them.

Unfortunately, we often end up marrying them! Statistically the greatest risk to a woman of physical violence by a man is marriage.

Women can date someone, sleep with them, and be engaged to them, and they still don't realise that they are violent.

It's simply not true that women can tell. I'm not suggesting your friend is violent, by the way. I'm sure she isn't.

i should go in the womens changing rooms and not be allowed in the mens

We're not saying anything about the mens, you'll have to ask some men how they'd feel about you joining them there.

Of course it's apparently terribly violent in there, so perhaps you don't want to go in anyway (not that I've ever heard such things from anyone other than windchimes on this page)

Toxic masculinity is the problem yes but as a born male it is her responsibility to deal with her sex's violence not the responsibility of the opposite sex to make room and open themselves up to risk. Not from your friend but from others who will follow. Spaces need to be segregated by sex.

So create a third space so people like your friend don't have to share with men and women don't have to share with male people either. Problem solved!

"Women STFU and do what they're told" is not the only solution available.

I read the feminism boards regularly but don’t feel well informed enough to usually contribute.

This has worried me. I usually step out of the individual changing rooms to get a better look (the individual cubicles are claustrophobic and unflattering with harsh, bright lighting). Safe in the knowledge I’m surrounded by other women so it doesn’t matter if the clothes turn out to be too sheer/ clingy/ unflattering. Like Kittens said, I’ve also had positive interactions with other women in this shared area.

Even if M&S has solid cubicle doors, if they adopt this policy the pressure is on for other retailers to follow suit, even those with flimsy curtains that don’t always cover the whole width of the cubicle. Will those retailers overhaul their changing areas? Of course not. Women will just be expected to put up and shut up with having strange men in what should be a women’s only space.

angryattackkittens but the way you are framing it you are making that choice for me? Because you are saying that i should go in the womens changing rooms and not be allowed in the mens and that transwomen should go in the mens and not be allowed in the womens. You are the one who is imposing a view not me. I want there to be unisex changing rooms that are safe so that no one is humiliated.

stoneage transwomen are at far more risk of harm from men that women are at risk of harm from transwomen.

You're not reading links.

Transwomen commit crime at exactly the same rate as natal men.

Of the transwomen in prison nearly half are there for sex offences. That is way above average.

You can, once again, try make a distinction between genuine trans-women and AGP transwomen or regular predators who say they are Trans.

But you will find youself thwarted in trying to make that distinction, because genuine transsexuals have been trying to do it for some time. And are being piled on.

'Transgender' according to stonewalls own website includes cross dressing fetishists. Not to mention all the generally misogynistic thugs who are drawn towards the ideology.