M&S changing room policy

I'm glad to see DN4 chiming in. That study (which I've been seeing AGPs bang on about for a while now) is complete bunk because for women "do you imagine yourself having a women's body" is going to be read as "do you imagine yourself having your body, or a younger/thinner/more perfect version of it", which is not at all the same thing as being a man and imagining yourself having a women's body. The equiv would be a woman who fantasizes about herself having a cock and balls, broad shoulders, etc. Like Datun says, it's just pathologizing women for being comfortable with our own bodies, while then intending to use that to support the idea that it's the same thing as fantasizing about having a body of a different sex. Typical dishonest, woman hating nonsense.

Serano hates detransitioners because their existence proves that just because you might at one point in time think that you might be trans that doesn't mean that transition is the right thing for you. That has all kinds of implications from the transitioning of children to the question of why someone might think that and turn out to be wrong. It's one of those questions that must not be asked because it threatens to bring the whole house down.

I imagine AGP individuals are so keen to be women that blurring any distinction between them and women is a plus.

That and the conflation of self appreciation with arousal.

Also, I can't imagine any women getting turned on by nail varnish.

I can easily imagine them getting a frisson picturing those same painted nails running down a man's back.

I've seen enough man conflate the two in order to minimise their fetish though.

Sorry, should have previewed.

First link The Detransitioners

The Psychometric Structure of Items Assessing Autogynephilia

I agree with Datun that there doesn't seem to be much ground to cover but I'm glad for the links, that open letter to Serano is great. I remember when [[https://www.thestranger.com/features/2017/06/28/25252342/the-detransitioners-they-were-transgender-until-they-werent this article came out last year and how great it was a for a bit until Serano decided she needed more attention by tearing us apart. 10-15 years ago when I was in, detransitioned people were expected and welcome part of the community, since we've become some boogeyman by people like Serano. After throwing so many people under the bus, I don't get how anyone can view Serano as a respected voice. Serano is only out for Serano.

Debbie666 - Since you asked what I thought of it: the abstract of that article clearly states that they created new parameters to make it fit natal women rather than using the one used males. That in itself says a lot before getting the tiny sample size and the major issue with the idea of studying natal women so it can be applied to trans women as implied by the end of that abstract. I personally find it very unethical to study female sexuality for the purposes of benefitting male sexuality.

My "misunderstanding" is based on several studies, including The Psychometric Structure of Items Assessing Autogynephilia which includes all the things I listed as part of the things used in the assessment.

To quote from the Appendix:

"Appendix 1 Items Assessing Autogynephilia
(General Autogynephilia Scale)1-5: not at all, a little, moderately, quite, very arousing

How sexually arousing would you find each of the following activities?1. The thought of being a woman.

1. Picturing myself having a nude female body or certain features of the nude female form.
2. Picturing myself with a woman’s breasts.
3. Picturing myself with a woman’s buttocks.
4. Picturing myself with a woman’s legs.
5. Picturing myself with a vagina/vulva.
6. Picturing myself with a woman’s face.
7. Picturing myself as a woman being admired by another person.
8. Having a stranger mistake me for a woman.

Now, we can't compare to the Women's version due to paywall and I'm not going to pay for what looks like crap unethical research but I still stand by my statement that if 93% of women found several of those arousing as would be needed for diagnosis, we would be too distracted by clit-boners to do much though thankfully for our anatomy it wouldn't really affect changing rooms and facilities much and certainly has very little to do with the need for sex separated facilities that women have long fought and continue to fight for.

medium.com/@LogicalMarcus/is-julia-serano-right-that-transwomen-are-female-a989dca9d026

This is a massive, essay-length deconstruction of Serano and not from a feminist perspective either.

Well worth reading if you have time to spare.

We never said that thing that we clearly said and that there's a record of us saying!

Another thing that TRAs and MRAs have in common.

AngryAttack - thank you so much for posting that Serano piece. I've had so many men quote Serano at me and tell that no trans person has ever said that lesbians are wrong for not wanting penis in their bedrooms.

And there you go! And agree, shit writing too

Open letter to Julia Serano from a detransitioner

I've had tons of people earnestly recommend Serano's writing to me with "it will blow your mind!" type comments, and I'm just going...in that his writing is terrible? Is that's what's supposed to blow my mind, that this drivel got published in the first place? Or is it the part where a biologist thinks that sex isn't real?

I don't know why transactivists seem to think Serano is the second coming or something. It always gets wheeled out. And it's not very good. Baffling.

No worries, LostSight, we're all good! I'm glad you're still reading, takes a while to head around some of this stuff.

Andi Dier can't be a woman because he sexually assaulted minors with his penis. Which women don't have.

Also, on the recommendation that everyone read Serano, whoever wrote this pretty much summed up my take on him.

deludedserano.wordpress.com/tag/julia-serano/

And for those who've never had the, um, pleasure of reading the real thing, here you go.

www.thedailybeast.com/the-struggle-to-find-trans-love-in-san-francisco

Apparently women are evil because we have boundaries and are selective about who we shag and men are nice and kind and accepting and open-minded because some of them will fuck pretty much anyone.

andi dier is the poster boy for what women have been alarmed about from the beginning of the dispute over sex segregated spaces and predatory males. andi dier cosplays a woman to gain access to girls without alerting security and with criminal intent to sexually assault them. He has done so successfully dozens of times according to his victims. He is one of many well known predators in local malls just like Roy Moore, the predator judge, was well known in his local mall.

misgendering andi dier because she “can’t be a woman” if she sexually assaulted minors

I imagine people 'misgender' Andi as Andi is a male, not a female. As such it would actually be 'misgendering' to say Andi is a woman. HTH, whoever tweeted that rubbish

Andi can't be a woman, as Andi IS MALE. Not because Andi sexually assaulted minors.

I think most people I have seen have been saying they will use preferred pronouns and such out of respect generally, but they have no respect for paedophiles who will shut down women speaking about their won experiences, so they won;t lie to be 'nice' in cases such as this.

"misgendering andi dier because she “can’t be a woman” if she sexually assaulted minors is TERF-y and disgusting

And we're on the wrong side of history? These individuals are furious because women aren't being polite enough to paedophiles?

Just to back up my above point

twitter.com/kindnessroast/status/959550063386222592

"misgendering andi dier because she “can’t be a woman” if she sexually assaulted minors is TERF-y and disgusting and ignores that women also perpetrate assault and abuse. you cannot use her predatory and despicable behavior to justify your own transphobia wyd"

If you believe "transwomen are women" then the predators just become evidence that "some women are criminals".

I posted this on the thread about Canada but I wonder if there is a significant NAMALT angle to all this too. How better to relieve male guilt about their sex class than to see crime committed by 'women' go through the roof. It gives so much validity to the women are as bad as men argument you see perpetuated quite a bit.

It perhaps explains some of the bizarre support for people like Andi Dier.

Yes - that's absolutely it twitchy

If you believe "transwomen are women" then the predators just become evidence that "some women are criminals".

If you don't believe transwomen are women then it becomes a simple case of"actually I don't want men in women's spaces regardless of how they present and my human rights to police my own boundaries when it comes to who gets to see me naked, touch my body, who I can be expected to share sleeping space with, should be respected.

Tbh Debbie, all this talk about whether AGP exists, or trans offending rates are just irrelevant, meaningless distraction, which seems to be a pretty standard TRA stance on any debate.

What we must remember is that the proposed amendments to the GRA apply to EVERY male, including the violent sex offenders. It's those buggers we're afraid off. Not Haley Cropper or Grayson Perry.

@AngryAttackKittens

This is why I was a bit short with the lady from Norway who turned out to be perfectly nice earlier (which I feel bad about). After years of dealing with Debbie, Rat, and friends you kind of hit an "oh FFS are you serious with this shit?" stage.

Please don’t feel bad. I’m still here, still reading and learning. I just needed to take some time to pull myself together. I have a habit of leaping into things and sometimes it lands me in the shit and I’m not great at dealing with it. And you didn’t say anything terrible. I also overreacted.

OK finished now. AGP is junk science. Umm. Yeah. Go read Julia Serano ..just LOL.I have nothing else to say to thyat load of crap to be quite honest. But its good to have you back Debbie anyway.

Ps thanks to the person who whispered in my ear about Moser and made me feel less alone.

You don't have to be alone.

You're posting on the feminist board.

There are literally dozens of other boards here, on almost any subject.

We not really your target audience. We've been talking about this for years. We know the drill.

Have a wander over to AIBU. You tend to get people more prepared to have a bit of a bunfight. Often lighthearted.

I'm not sure there is much more ground to be covered here, to be honest.

Debbie6666

Yes I've seen that study. I'm not reading it again. I think it's behind a pay wall, anyway.

The questions that were asked were leading, as far as I remember.

There is a current shift in the AGP community which claims that women who get a sexual tingle before they go on a hot date, for instance, are displaying signs of AGP.

Or, if they imagine having sex with someone and become aroused at the thought, the fact that they are imagining having sex in a woman's body (ie their own body), it's a sign of AGP.

Or appreciating themselves in the mirror, is a sign of AGP.

It isn't.

Women don't fetishise the idea of their own womanhood.

Neither are campaigning to get into men spaces, because they are fetishing the idea of manhood.

I'm sure, given that woman fetishised the Eiffel Tower, (I believe it was a woman, it), there are some very strange people who will fetishise anything.

But trying to claim that AGP is not a prevalent male fetish, is just wrong.

Wow. Again I had had this page open in the background for absolutely ages (over a day...I need to reset the laptop) nd did not refresh beore posting and now see there has been an extra hundred or so posts that I have no read. Second time I have done this in 3 days

Catching up now

Does it count as autogynephilia if its an image of yourself as yourself?

Get a third gender neutral space and you'll never be alone.
You might not like the company, they wont be as patient with you as many have been, but at least you wont be so lonely.

But I am sorry my challenge was to the repeated statement that trans women commit crime at the same rate as the male population and the fact is there is no unbiased scientific study that supports the claim as presented.

Recent stats show that transwomen actually commit sexual crime at a higher rate than other male people. Thats rather concerning, don't you think? I am aware that the original data was collected by a womans rights group and as such transactivists disputed it and said it was all exaggerated. Which is why I am glad MOJ released the actual figures, which showed the womens rights grup actually underestmated the figures. So it seems pretty conclusive, given there appears to be no other studes done. That it is not accurate to state transwomen commit sexual crime at the same rate of men, data shows they commit sexual crime at a higher rate than other men.