Active discussions

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Female to male transition - do the same anti-women arguments apply?

33 replies

EggYolkPie · 30/01/2018 09:16

Apologies if this is ill thought out. I’m still trying to understand issues around transgenderism - until a year or so ago I thought anyone who opposed transgender rights was a bigot. Not anymore.

I understand that transgenderism supports narrow definitions of gender that society have created. For example, women are gentle, quiet, caring, pretty and delicate. Men are strong, leaders, macho and dominant. This is clearly anti- women. I also understand that women lose out when men (who now say they are women) occupy roles that have been reserved for women. For example, Lilly Madigan, who is a man, taking the Women in Leadership role in the Labour Party. Grrrr.

But most of the arguments against self- identification of gender are around men identifying as women. What about the other way round? What about women who say they are men? Do the same feminist arguments apply? Do women still lose out? Do men lose? I think not because women are a marginalised group with more to lose than men. But I’m still trying to figure out my thoughts on this.

Very interested to hear your views...

OP posts:
stoneagefertilitydoll · 30/01/2018 09:49

I've been told I'm a closet transman on the internet twice. I'm really not. I just wear what's comfortable, and have a wide range of hobbies and interests - oh, and I'm Gender Critical.

picklemepopcorn · 30/01/2018 09:48

Men don't lose out when women identify as trans, but women still lose out when women identify as trans. The loss of a 'type' of woman, the loss of female characteristics, all now consumed by the 'Male' stereotype. The category of 'woman' becomes smaller and less appealing, frankly.

Original poster
EggYolkPie · 30/01/2018 09:43

Thank you all. Yes, yes, this all makes sense.

museumum you’re totally right. That is a very depressing thought - women who want to feel comfortable with their ‘masculine’ traits are encouraged to cut their breasts off. Good god.

And maybe men do lose out to an extent. Thinking about my son, I’d be upset for him if he felt he had to identify as a woman to feel comfortable with his ‘feminine’ behaviours.

OP posts:
Eminybob · 30/01/2018 09:37

It astounds me.
I have an older friend who is sporty, never wears dresses or skirts, has short hair, likes football etc and she is married to a woman.
Basically doesnt conform to typical female stereotypes. But she’s a woman, and would never claim to be anything less.
If she were born 30/40 years later it’s likely she would have been labled a transman and pressured to transition.
It’s just unnessesary, and yes totally anti feminist.

LangCleg · 30/01/2018 09:32

It's different in some ways and similar in others.

There is no harm to the class "man" if women self-identify into it. Men aren't an oppressed class and so have little, if nothing, to sacrifice.

But, as others have said, it's wrong if there is cultural pressure for non-feminine women to transition and it does seem as though this is on the increase, especially among young women who would otherwise be butch lesbians.

museumum · 30/01/2018 09:28

Yes. It’s pretty shit when women who want to be physical, sporty, dominant, naturally hairy and “macho” get told they need to cut their breasts off and pack their pants and take testosterone and pretend to be men Sad

SlowlyShrinking · 30/01/2018 09:26

Of course Steven whittle’s life is still supported by his wife remembering trivial shit that is beneath his manly notice.

SlowlyShrinking · 30/01/2018 09:23

I think women do still lose out, because any one of us who likes things that men are supposed to like is now told that this means that we must not really be women, but men. There are many older lesbians who are dismayed at the increase in transmen, because they feel that this will lead to the eradication of butch lesbian women, as they are all now transitioning instead.
There was a tweet yesterday by a tm called Steven Whittle which said ‘my wife always says she knows I’m a man because I don’t know the names of any of my children’s friends’ which just blew my mind really. So he doesn’t think much of men’s parenting abilities, and also clearly thinks women should do the shitwork and emotional labour of parenting. And of course “he” is actually a female, but has seemingly found a way to opt out of the crap bits (actually it sounds like a good idea)