Female to male transition - do the same anti-women arguments apply?

Other notable things I have heard from transactivists online...

It's all just misogynistic rhetoric though, isn't it?

Because I'm guessing in the real world most heterosexual men would want to have sex with an actual woman rather than a man who has had his dick chopped off and a fake sex tube made.

And any heterosexual man who hated women so much he'd rather have sex with a man masquerading as a woman is a man I think most women would be happy to forgo.

been told I'm a closet transman on the internet twice.

Yup I have been told this too. I had mentioned how I do not have a 'gender identity' as I feel like me, I don't feel like a woman, I just am one. And the person asked me how I would feel if i woke up tomorrow as a man. I said it would freak me out a bit but I would get used to it and might actually like it. I also pointed out that that thought experiment is daft as transpeople do not live as one sex then all of a sudden become the other sex. But yeah...because of this I am apparently a transman.

Other notable things I have heard from transactivists online are that men prefer transwomen as sexual partners as women who have had kids are 'loose' down there and transwomen aren't, along with women who have had kids have 'saggy tits' where transwomen do not. Was an interesting conversation, if completely batshit! Ended in me being called a disgusting bigot, like most conversations with TRAs do

I agree that transmen are no threat to men, but still a threat to women. After all, it's only because of transmen that we have the "pregnant people" and "chest feeding" arguments because they are, biologically, still women and have all the baby growing bits that women have, but claim to be men.

I agree that this is the narrative being pushed. But I'd question the authenticity of its source.

Transwomen have a strong, vested interest in eliminating the biological differences between men and women.

You see it all the time. Abortion is a privilege, pussy hats are transphobic, vagina is exclusionary.

It's necessary to blur the distinction is in order for them to continue to co-opt womanhood.

I don't doubt that gender dysphoria in a woman could be exacerbated by reference to her anatomy. But I don't see it coming from transmen.

Firstly they don't have the power to change language.

And secondly, they're a vanishingly small number.

I believe transactivists are doing what they do best, which is co-opt other people in order to push their own agenda.

I made the mistake of watching a bbc3 video about 'what not to ask a transperson'. Hello Paris Lees and Munroe Gergdorf.

The transman they used was an adorable wee lesbian. I wanted to hug her and tell her sweetheart, not one person on this planet thinks you're a man. I dare say the university environment makes these delusions seem real and protected, but beyond those walls she has a harsh reality coming her way.

I can't remember the name of the poster but I read a link on here not long ago to a blog where TRAs made a statement that the definition of a woman is someone who behaves on a way that is consistent with stereotypical female behaviour. I think this message is being sent out to the younger generation a lot (although not usually as overtly). So the other side of this is that someone who does not conform with a stereotype of a woman must be a man. I fear that this undoes so much that women have fought for in terms of equality and is leading some young people to make decisions that they may regret. For example, my teenage DD has a female friend who plays a lot of sport, has an athletic build, loves science and maths, has no interest in posting duckface selfies etc. She clearly feels that this makes her out of line with being a straight woman. However, she is attracted to boys so she has started talking about being trans. I don't think she is, I think she's just a girl who doesn't fit stereotypes but I don't think she can be blamed for thinking that that's not acceptable.

*get pregnant

I agree that transmen are no threat to men, but still a threat to women. After all, it's only because of transmen that we have the "pregnant people" and "chest feeding" arguments because they are, biologically, still women and have all the baby growing bits that women have, but claim to be men.

Whilst they claim to be 'men', pregnancy and breast feeding have no protection because it's not a sex discrimination case if 'men' can get pregnancy and breastfeed too.

Essentially, women lose out whichever way round it works.

Oh, and yes, I agree with that hierarchy. One of my closest friends is a 'butch lesbian'. She can see the benefits too.

I wouldn't think Transmen aren hugely privileged because they're still the ones who go through pregnancy and all of the stuff that comes with transitioning anyway. Also do people really believe they're male and award them male status or do they just see them as an lgbt token?
Transwoman are always making the papers, gaining awards and getting into politics, the only time you ever hear about a transman is when they've given birth and it's "man gives birth" fanfare.

I suppose that's the thing malaguena many trans men may feel that they are going from 6 to 1 or 4 to 2/3 but are they really. TRA's would have you believe they have huge privilege in their chosen gender but I doubt that is borne out in reality.

Just to add, that is based on a UK centric hierarchy rather than somewhere like Brazil.

Another issue to consider is that with self-ID, transmen would be excluded from women-only lists and services as they don't ID as women. I think it makes them even more marginalised, even though I have seen some arguing online that it is only fair since they now benefit from male privilege . This is further limiting the scope of what females can be and look like.

I would currently put trans women between straight men and gay men and trans men just above butch lesbian (perhaps dependant on how much they 'pass' but even those that superficially pass don't seem to be making great strides in the world).

I wonder where trans women and trans men fit in that hierarchy?

Brandon Teena had sex by deception which I consider morally equivalent to rape. Teena didn't represent any real threat to men though.

Brandon Teena didn't beat anyone, didn't rape anyone, didn't kill anyone.

There's no damage to the class 'man' when women transition, because that class rejects non masculine men. Trans men that dont pass, arent accepted as men.
There is no violence from trans men towards biological men, there is no threat they can make that is effective. They are still the ones at risk from violence and rape.

There is damage to an individual trans man if she is raped. She learns she does not pass as a man, will be treated with contempt by them, and has distanced herself from other women in an irreversible way.

There is damage to the people who belong to the class 'woman'. There is only one way to succeed and that is as a man, its a mans world, but you cant pass. You are too small and weak.

I've also been told I'm a closet trans man and told 'why don't you transition'. Thats from trans activists.

Trans people have been sold a lie - you cannot move out of your class. The upper class don't marry the working class, its difficult for them to maintain a simple friendship.

So by transitioning to be a straight man, they are effectively skipping from the lowest to the highest, from number 6 to number 1. I can understand why that would be appealing
Good point!

been told I'm a closet transman on the internet twice.
By who and why?

I don't think men are going to lose anything to transmen, simply because they won't permit it.

Transmen in the priesthood? No.
Transmen inheriting estates and titles? No.

And it says everything that this 'no' is given with perfect confidence and everyone (mostly) just accepts it. In Mumsnet terms, this 'no' is a full sentence.

Women's spaces can be invaded and their concerns mocked and their questions framed as bigotry... but there's close to zero chance anyone born female is going to appropriate male sacred/aristocratic/financial authority.

I did read that there is a hierarchy of labels which goes like this (obviously there are more labels but this is simplified):

1. Straight man
2. Straight-passing gay man
3. “Camp” gay man
4. Straight woman
5. Straight-passing lesbian
6. “Butch” lesbian

I don’t know what others think of this structure but I thought it was quite interesting. As you can see, right at the bottom of the pile are “butch” lesbians. So by transitioning to be a straight man, they are effectively skipping from the lowest to the highest, from number 6 to number 1. I can understand why that would be appealing.

Sorry first paragraph "feminists are all too aware of how allowing transwomen in these areas is harmful and unfair to women ...

It is a feminist issue because many feminists want to keep transmen in the category of female and transwomen in the category of male for all sorts of reasons.

Men don't lose out at all from transmen in their "territory" take the 3 examples of sport, prisons and safe spaces. Feminists are all too aware of how allowing transwomen in these areas is harmful and unfair for all sorts of reasons.

A transman in sport won't beat a natal man, their female physiology will still put them at a disadvantage (besides I think testosterone doping is banned in sport too so on that basis I think they are excluded from some sports anyway)
Prisons. Putting a self identified male in prison in with the males could potentially lead to that transman being made pregnant. Again their physiology will be a disadvantage in that environment.
Safe spaces. A transmen isn't really a threat to males, even if they are a perv of the highest order a transman will never be able to stalk a man home, rape them and get them pregnant.

Men do not see transmen as a threat and neither should they because they are not a threat, (so far zero trans men have committed crimes serious enough for sentencing) but a transman is equally vulnerable to male sexual violence as women are.

It's 100% anti women. Women are told that that they must be transmen if they aren't typically "feminine", if they don't wear makeup, heels and dresses because God forbid, having your own personality and likes outside of the socialised norm is alien.
No matter what happens, transmen so far have only reached the headlines for doing what they were born able to do which is give birth. I don't know offhand of any transmen that have reached the top echelons of business, entertainment, military rank or sporting elite. They reach the news because they have had a baby.