Bluestocking lock in!

Oh my goodness, thank you for the replies, and I apologise for worrying anyone. I was literally musing the point, not asking for support... when you're used to thinking about these things it's easy to forget how much it concerns others. Was actually speaking about this with a friend the other day, that it was nice to speak to each other when we both felt down because other people cannot get past the "Arghh they mentioned suicide! Must fix things!" point of view, and actually it's just really nice and helpful to quietly chat about stuff, and the sort of acceptance of how we both feel. I hope that makes sense.

Fermats Your comment made me smile, in a gallows humour type of way... It's not a period, it's my life. Admittedly has been worse recently but picked up a bit now. Actually the professional was generally great - she was concerned about me and understanding, and shocked/trying to explain why so many professionals have been dismissive and misjudged me in the past. The frustrating thing with mental health services is that they are so chronically underfunded that everything is geared towards getting people through a crisis alive, and that's it - there doesn't seem to be any room for the concept that they may not wish to die if they could work on the longterm issues.

Quentin MN led me to finally get a second opinion (well probably a 20th opinion by now..!) and the eventual decision was that ASD was probably lurking there somewhere. And we're back to the "atypical" aka non-male presentation thing again...

WomaninGreen I think most people find it more alarming when discussed rationally - the same may be true for many health professionals. But I've experienced more of the opposite from professionals - like they expect a suicidal person to be obviously emotional, and expect any attempt to be fairly impulsive, so calmy stating how you feel makes them think you are being attention seeking. Adding to this effect is the way that if they do take you seriously, suddenly it's all ambulances and police and A&E... and then nothing. So a huge drama is made and still no actual help at the end of it. Rinse and repeat until you're viewed as a "drama queen".

womanformerlyknownaswoman Oh wow. That could have been written about me. I actually have that book but never finished it, will dig it out. Thank you so much for posting.

TL;DR - mental health services are ridiculous, the women of FWR are awesome, and the bastards are not getting rid of me that easily

daily considering whether to continue living, weighing it up, trying so hard to make things better, gritting teeth and pressing on.

Judith Herman talks about this in "Trauma and Recovery" (see below) - it's a normal part of recovery. I relate. Horrible place to be and yet a positive sign of progress. Sucks to be there though! If your mental health professional doesn't know about Judith Herman and her work, I would find one who does - her book is like a bible for me that I refer to time and time again, over years. She gets the healing journey, like no-one else I have come across. Are you familiar with her?

The confrontation with despair brings with it, at least transiently, an increased risk of suicide. In contrast to the impulsive self-destructiveness of the first stage of recovery, the patients' suicidality during this second stage may evolve from a calm, flat, apparently rational decision to reject a world where such horrors are possible. Patients may engage in sterile philosophical discussions about their right to choose suicide. it is imperative to get beyond this intellectual defence and to engage the feelings and fantasies that fuel the patient's despair. Commonly the patient has the fantasy that she is already among the dead, because her capacity for love has been destroyed. What sustains the patient through this decent into despair is the smallest evidence of an ability to form loving connections.

MissMoneyPlant, there is such a taboo around suicide that even I'm worried replying to you.

I have been through this and I can only think that health professionals find it more alarming when it's discussed rationally than irrationally. I have been tempted to launch into "to be or not to be" but that would have been unfair to my lovely doctor! ( also some scholars would say that hamlet weighing up his options was a sign of madness, I beg to differ)

Re meds I was put in the bracket if "doesn't need counselling, just meds" and I was happy with that (they did give me details of people to call etc if I felt different).

Sometimes we are better thinking this stuff through alone or anonymously on message boards.

Btw I haven't chimed in on the male/female aspect of this debate because none of mine was affected by that, so I can't comment there. I did have a woman doctor though and she was known for being the best in the practice. The day she retired you couldn't move in the surgery for gifts, it looked like some sort of gift shop warehouse! She needed to be cloned

Money - I hope you find your way through this period. Do you have people around you who can help?

Also, maybe get yourself a better mental healthcare professional? I'd always been led to believe that suicidal ideation (thinking through the where, when and how) were major danger signals which HCPs were meant to take extremely seriously. Admittedly, there is still a gap between thinking and doing (when I had PND, I used to run through possible ways of doing it, being careful to think through how I could leave DC safe, and how to do it in such a way that it looked like an accident so no-one was left feeling guilty, but an accident such that no-one else was traumatised by being part of it... mercifully although the red flag of thinking about methods was there, I never went through with it). Anyway, do get people in RL to look after you - and to offer the sort of practical support which will make your life easier and take away some of the stresses making you feel this way.

Apologies, don't mean to derail, just came into the pub to get that off my chest!

Men seem to see the toilets as yet another space where it's perfectly legitimate to try things on sexually.

This struck me whilst watching Call the Midwife a few years ago - they had a ridiculous storyline where we were supposed to feel sorry for a man who cheated on his pregnant wife and tried to have sex with another man in the public toilets . Just made me think about the sense of entitlement to take over a public convenience for your own sex life - lesbians weren't doing that, were they? Between that, drag queens, and Penis News the misogyny amongst gay men became suddenly apparent.

Um... I was thinking about something else earlier, mental health related, just want to write it down/run it by you lot... Erm... I was told by a professional recently that it's very unusual to be suicidal as I am, ie. daily considering whether to continue living, weighing it up, trying so hard to make things better, gritting teeth and pressing on. Apparently it's more usually a sort of sudden crisis point, not a calm ongoing weighing up of things. But thinking about it this is rubbish, surely? The mental health boards here are full of women who are suffering, suicidal, but carrying on, often for others' sake. I just wondered if it was yet another area where the male presentation is viewed as default... With the consequence for women being "you're just making a fuss" and no support as they try desperately to keep going.

I have just had a horrifying thought that I feel safest to share here. If all toilets do become essentially unisex, how long before 'But you knew people with penises went in there, why did you go in?'
I know that sounds fear mongering but does anyone else think that's a possibility?

Yes. I think the same.

Wow. Sorry, no words.

Not scare mongering. It's always interested me talking to my dad about this how prevalent the worry about "being accosted in the gents" is. Men seem to see the toilets as yet another space where it's perfectly legitimate to try things on sexually. (I certainly remember that when a nightclub in the town I went to university introduced an arrangement where there were men's and women's cubicles either side of a central bank of sinks - and suddenly the toilet went from being this (slightly piss filled) oasis of calm where you could get a bit of space to yourself to becoming just another part of the meat market (my housemates loved this club; I thought it was one of the inner circles of hell).

This is so ubiquitous there was even a joke doing the rounds when I was a student which took the form of a "urinal positioning" questionnaire - 5 stalls, occupied in various permutations when you walked in - where do you stand? The fascinating thing was that the women who looked at it came up with random guesses, while the men's answers were complete social consensus - there was an unwritten set of rules which they all internalised. When we (the women in the group) asked them to explain, the underlying basis seemed to be "don't interrupt a couple who might be cottaging, if you must stand next to someone, do so in such a way it makes a group of three or leaves open the possibility of making a group of three..." The rules were geared round not issuing a tacit invitation to be "hit on".

I have just had a horrifying thought that I feel safest to share here. If all toilets do become essentially unisex, how long before 'But you knew people with penises went in there, why did you go in?'
I know that sounds fear mongering but does anyone else think that's a possibility?

They are funny arent they

Lord love 'em

rufus that made me laugh too!

Mine get the uhoh look when there is bad science on view. Animals being described as adapting rather than evolving is a favourite. They brace themselves when they tell me a Pokemon has evolved & acknowledge that yes it's more a metamorphosis really

waddle

I was having a chat with my 3 14-19 years old

Workplace deaths came up when ds2 said 'more men die in the workplace'

And i said 'oh thats very interesting, it really depends on your definition of workplace...' and prepared myself to discuss (lecture )

And ds2 turned round to ds1 and said 'I'm so sorry...i didnt think it through'

Made me laugh

FermatsTheorem how wonderful she was able to see you & her grandson safe & well

woman
I'm so relieved it wasnt out of turn, my Dad died very suddenly when I was a child & I can still remember the people who avoided saying anything so I promised myself to always say something in horrible situations because I found it better acknowledged clumsily than not at all. But obviously others may not feel the same!
I hope you find a good sleep & a peaceful heart tonight

rufus guilt is so awful I hope you can forgive yourself (not that i think you did anything wrong quite the contrary I think it was a great kindness)

...
I tied myself in knots today when my DD said "well what is feminism?" So many facets that I dont want to share with a 9 yr old & dont want to scare her off with my ranting. She was very much "but obviously women can do anything a man can why would we need to tell people that" tbh I think that's where I was until at least my late teens if not twenties...

fermats

Hugs Woman and to Rufus too.

My mum was ill and increasingly frail for years. I think she got through my pregnancy (I had my baby late in life; I was her youngest) and the early months of DS's life on sheer bloody mindedness. I had low level PND and really struggled with BF; mum saw me through that. Then it was almost as if she could see I'd finally turned a corner and was coping, and thought "it's okay, I can let go now."

quentin

Yes

All the things you never did

Everyone's contribution has been really helpful.....the permission thing has been on my radar for over a year so I need to ponder.
I'll sign off for tonight but thanks again for listening.

Thanks

It was fucking typical of her to be honest

Die when i was the only one there...my brother had gone off to buy her a teddy and my dad had left her bedside for the first time in days to have lunch with his sister (virtually dragged him out)

Such a contrary woman

In my defence she never listened to me usually ...wasnt really expecting her to this time

Aw Rufus, I totally think you did the right thing.

Offers and unmumsnetty hugs xx