Why is the definition of a woman so confusing these days?

Bertrand I'm pretty heavily involved in league-structured amateur sport.

Maryz sorry, I got onto your post about sport segregation, perhaps not sufficiently. It's so hard to respond to anyone sufficiently on here, it's like trying to have 25 discussions all at once!

the real problem is that in order to widen the definition to include "some men" - those who "identify" as women - in reality the definition of woman has to include all men, simply because there is no way of proving which men identify as women

"woman" will therefore mean "adult human"

Do you accept that?

No, because is easily established simply by asking someone isn't it?

Also: how do you include "anyone who identifies as a woman" in sex-segregated women's spaces, but exclude "men"?

Do you have a way of doing that?

I don't know of all that many segregated spaces (proportionally) that currently have "gatekeepers" (e.g. public toilets) so I imagine spaces such as those would continue to be self-policed just as they are now. Ones where segregation is necessarily policed, again, I imagine people will primarily ask the question.

If not, then I'd really like to hear your take on whether sex segregation should be completely done away with (sport, changing rooms, prisons, support groups, refuges, etc etc).

I don't think it should be done away with. Except perhaps "sex" segregation would become a misnomer?

and not even a woman for whom this is an especially pressing issue

With all due respect, this is obviously not true, or you wouldn't be active in multiple threads arguing the issue.

If you for a moment imagine agreeing with the premise "transwomen are women", just imagine where that logic would take you. That's where your opposition stand. They're buying that premise, not your "it's impossible" premise, and it's a door I haven't been persuaded to close. That's where the problem lies.

‘You are a slow learner, Winston,’ said O’Brien gently.

‘How can I help it?’ he blubbered. ‘How can I help seeing what is in front of my eyes? Two and two are four.’

‘Sometimes, Winston. Sometimes they are five. Sometimes they are three. Sometimes they are all of them at once. You must try harder. It is not easy to become sane.’

Also encouraging to hear that the missing millions are dead not because they are female but because of ... well not entirely sure but they probably don't matter much so why bother thinking about it.

Ditto the girls kept as sex slaves by daesh, and the ones kidnapped by boko haram. Nothing to do with female, female is an illusory semantic nothing. Of no importance. The ones who were picked for that probably just looked at them funny or something, it was just a coincidence they all had cunts not dicks.

Very heartwarming for the girls who undergo early marriage, rape and impregnation resulting in pregnancies that can kill them that there's no real such thing as female, or girl, or woman. And that those things could've happened to anyone really...

This utter disregard for the actual lives of girls and women all over the world is a defining characteristic of the most extreme TRAs. Which is another reason to question.

Rat you are being disingenuous and are not answering any of the very relevant questions about whether people are able to 'identify' as being anything they like

I'm really not being disingenuous; how do you figure that? Is it because you think I'm avoiding questions? Have a look at my posts - I'm answering as much as I can! I am but one woman, and not even a woman for whom this is an especially pressing issue; I really thought I'd be the one asking the questions, but as it is I'm doing the best I can in explaining my position.

Hairy I really do know quite a great deal about amateur sport, I assure you. Certain sport(s) more than others, doubtless, but none the less I'm far better informed in that arena than most.

Haven't read the rest of the posts yet.

Yeah, and it's going to keep being done to death until we don't have people campaigning to move male sexual perverts to women's prisons, remove sex segregation in healthcare and rape crisis centres and domestic violence shelters, make women's sport meaningless, DAD

Or until the law has changed so that we're all imprisoned for the thought crime of not believing there is such a thing as a female penis.

If I said that, to me, identifying as a woman means having long hair and liking the look of my legs in dresses, and you said it was knowing you have two x chromosomes, it doesn't mean either of us isn't a woman. So I don't think "what it means" - and that being universal - really matters as much as one might think

But if you said that and you had a penis, it would mean one of us was not a woman, wouldn't it? And that is the point!

Why not read the thread mrs goldberg and then you will see what different people believe and why.

It has been done to death.

Why are transsexuals male to female not real women? I think being female is in your head.
Being a woman or a girl or being female is semantics.

Nothing.

And something else I don’t understand. What is so wrong with being a transwoman?

Here is a boy who is going to take a girl's scholarship

Like the Iranian women's football team which at one point contained 8 biological males.

Then you have places like Iran where homosexuality is punishable by death and trans-ing fixes that - their women's football team is mainly "ex" chaps I think? Out there they are highly likely to have had full surgery I imagine, because what they are doing is "correcting" gay people so you'd need the right-ish bits and bobs.

Sorry only read the first page but the OP made an interesting point about the OED. If it defines the word women by referencing biology could they then be guilty of a hate crime? And if so, well... how are they going to define the word women?

I just looked and at the moment:

NOUN plural women

1. An adult human female.

My 16 year old is faster and stronger than 16 year old girls who play the same sports as he does who have been training the same number of years. The gap starts to show at about 12/13.

There are plenty of countries that will encourage male athletes down the trans route in order to get wins at olympic etc level. They do all sorts of stuff to them legal and illegal already, it's really not a stretch to see that they will get a pretty good but not a-list athlete, all they need to do is get their testosterone down to a level that is still at bottom range of normal for men (and well above the top end of normal for women, 2.5 x I think it is) and bob's your uncle.

RatRolyPoly, you appear to have missed my posts, so I hope it's ok if I re-ask/comment:

the real problem is that in order to widen the definition to include "some men" - those who "identify" as women - in reality the definition of woman has to include all men, simply because there is no way of proving which men identify as women

"woman" will therefore mean "adult human"

Do you accept that?

Also: how do you include "anyone who identifies as a woman" in sex-segregated women's spaces, but exclude "men"?

Do you have a way of doing that?

If not, then I'd really like to hear your take on whether sex segregation should be completely done away with (sport, changing rooms, prisons, support groups, refuges, etc etc).

And if not, how do you propose to segregate the right type of women/men? Do you exclude women who feel like men? Do you exclude people who sometimes feel like men and sometimes feel like women?

I just don't understand how it would be possible.

For me, the most maddening thing about TRA insistence on being called women and only women, is that medically it is not in their interest (indeed nor in transmens interest) to conceal their original sex from doctors etc. In emergency situations there could be all kinds of ramifications to no one knowing what's really inside, and I'm not talking gynae things. There are differences between male and female bodies, I'm not a doctor so I can't list them but I will just link to this interesting article on women's hearts because it sort of hints at what I'm getting at.
myheartsisters.org/2010/11/14/womans-heart-cf-mans/

“It's unlikely, given the league structures within organised sport, that they'd come up against an individual whose strengths or abilities were so vastly different to their own.”

Why do you think this?

Rat you are being disingenuous

YY.

Yes, Gabrielle Ludwig took a women's college sports scholarship from a woman in her twenties who could have had it, despite being technically ineligible (having played men's college basketball in his twenties, so already having had one bit at the cherry) and being in his fifties - such was the advantage conferred by being significantly over 6 foot and towering a whole head above the rest of his team.

It's a recurring theme. Man who is relatively crap (middling amateur) in sport as a man transitions at an age when most athletes of both sexes are retiring, and suddenly becomes world-beating as a middle aged woman. (Fallon Fox, Laurel Hubbard).

It's so obviously unfair I can't get my head round why people can't see it. We're well into Ron L Hubbard aliens from outer space territory in terms of the suspension of all respect for scientific evidence and the evidence of one's own senses.

We are allowed to "resort to biology", though. It's not illegal (yet) to acknowledge that human reproductive biology is a thing that exists.

And I don't know, I've seen a lot of pain and a lot of passion from the trans people I've known. They really are invested in the reality of their experience

So are people who believe that the Rapture is coming, or that their children are possessed by demons that must be cast out in various unpleasant ways. So are some people who're mentally ill. Doesn't mean that their subjective feelings should have the force of the law behind them or that other people should be compelled to act as if they believe the same things.

Nor does it mean that women as a whole should be obliged to go along with any of this stuff because you personally are having a hard time reconciling "these people seem genuinely upset" with what the logical part of your brain is telling you.