Why is the definition of a woman so confusing these days?

What real-world scenarios are you imagining that will be made impossible to overcome were the word "woman" to evolve, as so many other words have? I can see hurdles, but not insurmountable ones that warrant such huge resistance.

I don't mean to niggle, I'm just not seeing anything that warrants such catastrophising.

The massive deal as you put it, Rat, is the huge number of discrete structural, material and medical issues that affect said cunt-n-ovary-folk.

That, by definition do not affect those with/born with cock & balls.

"Woman" is not a word you can just endlessly hitch the latest wagon to, its meaning is rooted in materiality and the role that person may play in sexually dimorphic reproduction. It is delineated by science. A woman is more than her biology of course, but never less.

Funny how the word "man" is tightly guarded, whereas "woman" is porous to appropriation.

Women have always been the play things of society.

This is not what I am hearing in general life. We are being told that it's NOT ok to say that a woman is a person who never had a penis, etc.

I've got to object a little bit to this. I see a lot of discussion on trans issues online, but I've never come across them in my day to day life. Most people have no idea about trans issues and probably aren't really interested.

I think we need to stop giving very very minority views quite so much airtime. And I say this as someone who is gender critical and thinks that transwomen are men.

I think most people are going to carry on having the same old definitions of the sexes that they've always had. Trans people are being lied to by the activists i think - they're not going to get much more acceptance from the general public, just a bit of lip service for fear of being labelled transphobic.

I worry about the kids going through it now, who in 10/20 years time might turn around and realise they're infertile, with little chance of a "normal" sexual relationship and regretting bodily changes that they can't reverse. They're being sold a pup.

What exactly is the massive deal Bah? We still have man-woman marriages now don't we? We're able to express when that is the case, should we find it necessary to make the distinction? Surely we can manage to do the same in the case of women. Or perhaps the world will come crumbling down around us.

"Whatever we call them, we still need a common word for that cohort.

...female?"

Well, indeed, but trans identified males are claiming that word for themselves too. There is no word left for cunt-n-ovary-folk that hasn't been appropriated.

Whatever we call them, we still need a common word for that cohort.

...female?

Biology isn't immutable though, nor are the political consequences of being born in the impregnatable and gestating class of humans. Whatever we call them, we still need a common word for that cohort.

Why is having a common word for the subjective and ethereal cohort of people who identify with feminine stereotypes and feelz more important than having a common word for people who objectively and materially have cunts and ovaries (or had them, or at least have the stem cells for them)?

It’s actually frightening how this is affecting real women. My 15yr old niece identifies as a boy and when I asked my oldest boy if he thought she was a boy, he answered that ‘that’s how ‘she’ identifies’. He refused to give a straight answer. She still goes on the family ‘girls’ outings’, while her brothers stay at home. 😒

When I asked him to ensure that his little sister (22yrs old with SN) is only dealt with by a born female, regarding intimate medical examinations/care, if anything ever happened to me, he said that trans women aren’t perverts. I explained that the level of violence and sexual assaults amongst them was the same as the level amongst men who didn’t identify as women. I explained that NAMALT, but I wasn’t willing to risk her safety as she doesn’t have a voice. I was accused of being a bigot and even when I asked if he was willing to risk his little sister’s safety to prove a point, he rolled his eyes and walked away in a mood. How fucking terrifying is that? It absolutely breaks my heart that his loyalty lies so much with men that he will risk his sister. 😢

He follows the old trans women are women, deflecting when asked if trans men are men. It just goes to show how fucking invasive this shit is, even when it comes to the safety of the must vulnerable women in society. If anyone EVER spouts off to me about the ‘poor vulnerable’ Tim’s, I swear I will fucking lose it with them.

From the comments from the trans people on here recently, it seems less about what they felt like, and more about what they DIDN'T feel like.

i.e. they were unhappy with their born bodies first and foremost. The desire or need to have the other body (of the two physical options available) was their only other choice.

I don't wish to put words in their mouths, but maybe if there had been a third, fourth, fifth... bodily option available, they would have actively 'known' that that was the one which was 100% right immediately and not just the other body to one they came out of the womb with.

Am I making any sense?

Why is the definition of a woman so confusing these days?

The definition of "marriage" went through a similarly confusing time, if I remember rightly. It used to mean a union between a man and a woman.

But, you know, definitions have to change sometimes, particularly when we realise they're insufficient.They're not immutable.

I'm sure it does. Internalised homophobia must play a part.

Right down to the assumption that because a boy likes playing with girls toys, he must be a girl. Can't possibly be a boy exhibiting feminine traits, because that's like so gay.

I was thinking perhaps wider than that. A Christian who doesn’t believe in gay sex. Racial and cultural intolerances. Etc.

Rumbledore

Being gay is punishable by death. So yes, I should say that's a pretty safe assumption!

In Iran, where homosexuality is illegal, so they have many more transwomen, half the women's football team are men.

Interesting. Is it possible that some men are identifying as women because they consider it more acceptable than being gay?

First post on this board but lurked for a while.

@Fairenuff

The dictionary definition of the word woman hasn't changed. It's a legal definition. Except, as far as I know, it's there is no actual definition. Just that you can be legally called a woman, without defining how that actually works in terms of actual definition.

It's not illegal to stay transwomen are men.

Transactivists are manipulating the law to put pressure on people.

The equalities act says you cannot be discriminated against on the basis of 'gender reassignment'.

Gender reassignment is defined as, and I'm paraphrasing here, either transitioning to, or 'in the process of' transitioning to the opposite sex. So it's incredibly woolly, because you can just say it out loud but not actually do anything. As that could be considered being 'in the process of'.

So it means it's a protected characteristic and you can't be discriminated against on that basis.

It doesn't mean that discrimination is defined as not calling them a woman.

If someone has a gender recognition certificate, for which you need to be over 18, have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria and have 'lived' as the opposite sex for two years, you are legally considered a woman.

Approx 1% of people who identify as transgender have a certificate.

It means, to all intents and purposes they can say they are women. But even so, there are still exemptions in place.

Culturally, it's a different matter.

This whole issue is racing ahead at a rate of knots, and terms are not been defined. They are just being used.

So stating a transwoman is a man will get you accused of transphobia.

But unless you are discriminating under the equality law it doesn't matter what they call you. It's not transphobia.

Transphobia gets defined as negative attitudes or prejudice.

Prejudice is defined as a preconceived opinion not based on reason or experience. So clearly biology, is absolutely not prejudiced. Neither is there any judgement to it that could be construed as negative.

But transactivists have done a marvellous marketing job of making people scared to say what they absolutely can say.

In terms of sport, men are competing as women.

Lauren Halpern in Australia, Lauren Jeska, fell runner, in this country. Who stabbed an official in the neck because he said he needed to provide an analysis of his testosterone levels.

The Australian rugby/football player, whose name escapes me. Andrea Yearwood who has taken state titles in America, despite having no treatment whatsoever.

Gabrielle Ludwig basketball player.

In Iran, where homosexuality is illegal, so they have many more transwomen, half the women's football team are men.

Fallon Fox, boxer who broke the orbital bone of his female opponent.

The transwomen cyclists who came first, second and fourth in the women's event.

And many, anecdotal stories at county level and school level, right here on mumsnet. Citing children and adolescents, who can't possibly legally be the opposite sex.

The criteria is they have to have a lower testosterone level. I'm not a scientist, but it's under 10 something, where women only ever achieve four something (sorry, I don't know what the measurement actually is).

Which doesn't take into account any other physiology.

As a litmus test, ask yourself how many transman are beating men in sport? And, show me one man on the planet who gives a fuck whether a transman wants to compete with them.

Here is a link to some of the sports issues.

gendertrender.wordpress.com/?s=Sport+&submit=Search

Here is incredibly useful link set out by women laying out the equality law is and how exemptions can be invoked to protect women's rights.

lookaside.fbsbx.com/file/FPFW_UK_Equality_Act_2010_guide.pdf?token=AWy5vcUiNcAUc743GM5TtmqAaVbsXCIO7jRPo9sEBghth0ZmTWsZp9p11lEbt4DrmRrd1ciUrH9-WCG10Iq-475B0SBD79O5LZ_9FEOHVei98rQEaRz-9-5tbw6jls4l_VdOL_kLlp4cstwPlnxP_ZoCICVLC4XooCrvrdZHFet217jNQfIXu15zHRwJVF0DJ41a-onsu3f4Hx9PZnvhk9v2qB9m5gLEVdZZSMTasOEoFA

Wearing a headdress
Wearing braids
Having Sanskrit tattoos

All cultural appropriation
But wearing a dress and calling yourself a woman. No problems

No idea Naked. I can only conclude it's because the majority of men demanding this are white and we give white men what they like.

Why are these men 'defining' as women (which is basically a bloke looking like what he thinks a woman looks like) not considered cultural appropriation?

Interesting that everyone is still fairly clear on what it means to be a man... seems like it's just us women who have to give up our identity to accommodate others. What a surprise!

Everyone knows what a woman is because every single human being on this planet came out of one.
Changing the definition to erase this fact is beyond offensive and should be criminal.

Woman: adult human female
or
Woman: what everyone aspires to!

I will never say that a trans identifying male is a woman.

TIMs are a subset of men not women.

They portray cabaret cariacatures of women.

They conforn to the narrowest stereotypes of 'femininity'; ones which many actual women reject.

They play at being what they think women are.

The trans agenda is not about supporting people with gender dysphoria; the TRAs use derogatory language to describe them.

This is about men who hate women bringing us down a peg or two by attempting to dismantle the societal support systems put in place to, largely, protect us from men who hate women.

But, for some reason, EVERYONE who has the power, who is in a position, to stand up and say this, isn't.

Probably because they are also fearful of the aggressive men who are promoting this and are happy to throw women under the bus to protect themselves.

Or something like that.

Are transwomen already allowed to compete in women's sports or is that another rumour I've heard?

@Fairenuff

Yes.