Andrew Marr asking gov minister "So is a trans woman a woman?"

Catmint

1. only 7 trans people have been murdered in the UK in the last 10 years

2. in those last ten years, trans people have murdered more people than trans people have been murdered

3. it's £140 with reductions for low income people. You only need a letter from two doctors (ie GP and gender specialist) to say you have gender dysphoria and you need to provide proof that you have lived as your desired gender for two years (ie provide household bills in your new name, driving licence in your new name, evidence that you've name changed/got a new birth certificate). It's not humiliating or shaming.

Ha! My MP is Maggie Throup. Let's just say there a a few issues on which we don't see eye to eye.

I will keep trying.

Re my ongoing Facebook discussion, I've said that GRA worries me because predatory ( in a broad sense) people could exploit it for their own purposes. Someone's posted the response below to me:

"There are thousands of Trans women assaulted and murdered all over the world each year, including the UK. On your argument someone who hadn't managed to get through the legal hurdles to get a GRC would not be afforded the support services and safe places available for other women meagre though they are. The existing GRC procedure is presently lengthy and complex and relatively expensive especially for someone without good employment prospects, which is unfortunately the lot of many trans people."

It's confused me. I don't disagree that it is wrong for people to be abused for who they are/ feel they are. Of course I don't, and none of you do either.

Sorry. I'm not articulate or clever. Every plausible argument has me nodding in agreement. I need help to get my brain to the point where I can see these things for myself.

What is the counter/ context I need to know in response to that point, please?

@Catmint

Well done. Sometimes it's quite cathartic to to get it down on paper. And solidifies how you think.

And don't let it rest if you get a bollocks reply.

Not because I necessarily think you will change their mind, but votes are votes, right? Public opinion is crucial.

And I know they will have had other letters. Virtually very single MP in the country has had a letter.

Everyone needs to write. Be as convincing as you can, but just remember it's also a numbers game.

I'm sure there is a perception, too, along the lines, if I get five letters, that must mean 500 people are worried, because most people don't write.

Cat let us know what your MP says. And do not be afraid to name and shame if they don't listen.

In fact, it might be a bit of a wizard wheeze to let our MPs know that we are talking on mumsnet about them and mumsnet has 12 million unique users per month.

That's an awful lot of votes...

@Datun

I've written to my MP. Fingers crossed for a proper response. There's got to be a first time, right?!

Oh how jolly D of him.

He's decided at last that he will generously permit women to have a say about their rights that he wants to remove, and in their redefinition.

I shall dash off and bake him a cake. and ice it with beautiful lettering stating that he's a misogynistic, patronising dinosaur of a twat

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/feminists-can-oppose-transgender-policy-says-corbyn-j2xkschjk

Follow up article from the times.

Well done Catmint

Can feel onerous writing letters and getting all your thoughts down on paper, covering everything.

Frankly, it's also a numbers game. The more women who object on any grounds, of which there are many, the better.

If your MP sends back some cut-and-paste bollocks, write again. Be relentless.

It's also worth noting that often people achieve far more by an actual visit. Partly because it's easier to explain face-to-face. But also because, it would appear, many MPs often allow their assistants to deal with some letters.

The assistants are often young, right on...

And ask the question. What are you, personally, doing to protect women's rights?

Thank you. I will write to my MP, although from experience I doubt there will be any joy there.

And I have posted the link about the prisoner.

Those that are diagnosed with gender dysphoria (and called truscum) generally accept they are male - so I'm a bit confused why they need a law enabling them to live a lie in stealth.

With the advent of same-sex marriage and pension equality the GRA is no longer necessary to access these human rights.

I agree with BetsyM00. The GRA is no longer required. Rather than being amended it should be repealed.

After a conversation with someone the other day who decided they didn't want to talk about it any more when I asked what rights transgender people required, I asked on here if anyone else could think what rights they currently lack. It was a short thread, as the only answer was the right to occupy women's spaces and trample on women's rights. And that amounts to misogynistic and homophobic narcissism.

Repeal the GRA!

This is my question:
Can you mandate belief?
Can you codify into law the idea that some people can mind over matter themselves out of material reality and into the opposite sex, and must be treated accordingly?
It is like transubstantiation. A belief that no one actually believes.
Will you allow people to drug and mutilate children based on this belief that no one believes?

If I were Marr:

Mr Corbyn, are you a man?
Yes (slight embarrassed laugh)
How do you know that?
Er, um, because I identify as a male
You're saying that your genitals aren't the reason?
Er, no
So, it's your brain, your personality that's male?
How do you know that, if you have never been the other sex?

@Catmint

You can write to your MP. Very many women are doing this. Even if they know their MP is in favour of self ID.

It really is worth it. Let's get their inboxes pinging with outraged women. They can't ignore us all.

The link below talks you through a letter.

A Woman's Place UK has come up with five points. They are designed to strengthen the exemptions that are already in place, that many retailers/service providers don't know about. We want them to be commonplace.

We want to invoke the equality act if there is a dodgy man in our Marks & Spencer changing room. And for the sales assistant to totally understand and not feel worried.

The five points do not mention transgender.

This is about women and their rights and maintaining them.

A Woman's Place has made headway in lobbying parliament. Their site is worth a browse, (although the actual link is from fair play for women).

The last point suggests you write an anecdotal account. For which you could use the sex offender, with string of convictions, demanding to go to a woman's prison.

The thread about him is on here, and I've left it below. It's worth reading the thread, because the newspaper reporting put a sympathetic slant towards the prisoner, by explicitly leaving out all their offences.

It's this kind of reporting that is irresponsible, incredibly damaging and disgracefully biased. Demonstrating a highly misogynistic agenda that is difficult to justify.

fairplayforwomen.com/womans-place-uk/

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3151526-Trans-prisoner-on-hunger-strike-in-mens-prison

If you email, can I suggest you also put a hard copy in the post.

An actual piece of paper is harder to ignore in this day and age.

David Davies' "transphobic views are abhorrent and out of kilter with Conservative Party policy" according to LGBT+ Conservatives. www.buzzfeed.com/patricksmith/a-tory-mp-was-called-a-transphobe-by-the-official-tory-lgbt?sub=4734442_120414519&utm_term=.rjy0wAxv9Y#.rjy0wAxv9Y

Just spotted this on buzzfeed. Davis will get hammered for this I expect

Just read that twitter thread..... one comment: 'my life was great til you started debating it, put down debate.'

No, because you're not the only person it affects, or more important than everyone else, and it's ethically unacceptable to prevent people hearing and thinking about all the information to make an informed decision when you're trying to alter everyone's language, reality, concepts, right to privacy, right to dignity, safeguarding...

It's so bloody childish it's alarming.

This is a fairly silly Twitter vote on whether trans women should be on AWS. Currently 2/3rds yes, 1/3rd no. It

it's been shared by LM though so will get coverage from a certain echo chamber. It doesn't differentiate between trans women with a GRC and those without so use with discretion twitter.com/SocialistVoice/status/957590350373285888

No worries, Asgardianmale, I want the same thing, women to be safe.

Thank you rowdywoman1

This is what I mean, this man is going to be let out of prison at some point and I don't want him anywhere near my family.

Catmint:
Maybe ask if they support this transgender person currently on hunger strike wanting to be transferred to a women's prison.
www.theguardian.com/society/2018/jan/27/marie-dean-trans-prisoner-male-prison-hunger-strike

(they're actually a convicted sex offender / paedophile / burglar who breaks into teenage girls bedrooms and masturbates into girl's underwear

Datun for PM!!!!

Hi,

I haven't rtft, but just popping in to say hello.

I've been lurking on some of your discussions and have found them really enlightening.

I follow an politically neutral educational org called Simple Politics on FB, they posted about the trans discussion on Marr. I've responded saying that I am concerned about self ID. Within minutes someone jumped on and called me a terf. I'm not even sure what it means.

But if anything has made me determined to do something, it's that!

What is the single most influential thing I can do to point out the risks of self ID, please?

Thanks in advance.

I thought we were in 2018 not 1820?

I'm not on Twitter!

I can only handle one addiction a time. Mumsnet, at the moment, is my only vice. Apart from alcohol. My intake of which increases every time I read another column inch.

Well we're fucked aren't we. The tories are eroding our rights left right and centre and now Labour are joining the war on women. I don't agree with not voting but there is nobody I'd currently vote for.