Andrew Marr asking gov minister "So is a trans woman a woman?"

and Hi Blind Yeo, thanks for your links. I haven't had the chance to do any digging as things are crazy at work

Hi Bewilderness, thanks for the link

Men should not have womens rights, as men are not women, males are not female, this is not controversial in any way. Its pretty easy to understand once the ridiculous language is taken away.

Yep. Use plain language - males or men instead of 'transwomen' - and the manipulative framing of the TRAs becomes crystal clear.

Hopefully this is helpful, it's a page from SAGES that gives reasons to object to the proposed GRA, and why it is detrimental to women, with links to stats, research, etc.

sages.org.uk/publications/sages-factsheet.html

Miranda links to this excellent blog post which we've discussed elsewhere but I haven't been able to find in the past so glad to find it now. Also there are comments from friends of "trans" people which are particularly revealing. Then you have at the end "Valerie Keefe" (pretty sure is MTT from other social media) commenting. Even more revealing as to why they make these statements.

www.lifeisgoodmakeitbetter.com/2015/03/the-appropriation-of-black-and-hispanic.html?m=1

Sorry I misread your post. The person posting on Facebook is an idiot.

There are thousands of Trans women assaulted and murdered all over the world each year, including the UK."

There really aren't. As pp figures show, there isn't even one whole trans person (male or female) murdered in the U.K. each year. Hyperbolic idiocy. I hope the MP didn't write that response herself, or you have big problems.

Thanks all.

I'm away working at the moment so haven't had chance to respond. The poster has posted 2 lengthy lectures addressed to me but I haven't read closely yet. Once I'm back home I will pick it up.

I really appreciate your support. You've given me confidence & I am learning.

I think I will push back on this point using your guidance then withdraw from the discussion as I expect most people will have stopped reading, & I seriously doubt that facts will change the person's mind.

On your argument someone who hadn't managed to get through the legal hurdles to get a GRC would not be afforded the support services and safe places available for other women meagre though they are.

Men should not have womens rights, as men are not women, males are not female, this is not controversial in any way. Its pretty easy to understand once the ridiculous language is taken away.

There are thousands of Trans women assaulted and murdered all over the world each year, including the UK. On your argument someone who hadn't managed to get through the legal hurdles to get a GRC would not be afforded the support services and safe places available for other women meagre though they are. The existing GRC procedure is presently lengthy and complex and relatively expensive especially for someone without good employment prospects, which is unfortunately the lot of many trans people."

I would respond along the lines of "That's right, support services for women are meagre. Did you k ow that two women are murdered every week by their partners. Whereas over the last 10 years, 7 transpeople have been killed in the UK. The women are clearly in greater need of the meagre resources than are the transwomen."

Catmint

As well as pointing out that, as pp have said, in the UK, a TIM is actually far less likely to be murdered than other men, you could just state the obvious:

'No, a man would not be able to access a service provided by and for women to meet women's specific needs. There is nothing unusual about that.'

You could also turn the question back on them:

'If, as you claim, thousands of transwomen are being assaulted and murdered in the UK, why aren't transwomen themselves setting up their own support services and refuges to cater for their own particular needs?'

Here's another (pro-trans) abstract of another study with a percentage who have had bottom surgery:

link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13178-017-0295-8

I expect the trans lobby will argue that low uptake of surgery is because of gatekeeping and waiting lists rather than because of AGPs wanting to keep their tackle.

Forgot to say it was US-based not UK.

justgivemetwominutes did you find the stats you needed? I had a quick look and didn't find much.

I found this in the Transgender Health journal

online.liebertpub.com/doi/pdfplus/10.1089/trgh.2017.0028

Surgical stats for this study on p.160 and an interesting discussion.

Thanks, TransHobbit. Also, you've reminded me to go and do some more digging on the bridging prescriptions thing, which I've been meaning to do for ages (how many are going to adults and how many to minors).

TransHobbit

Is it right that you need your spouses permission? Or currently, if you disagree, it is grounds for divorce?

Is that what they mean by spousal veto?

@Catmint

Well done for pushing back. Stay calm, don't get dragged into rabbit hole nonsense.

The statistic about transwomen being murdered applies to South America, largely Brazil. And the cohort is prostitutes.

Transwomen are no different to women in that situation. Prostitution is incredibly dangerous (and should be addressed, but that's another thread).

In this country (and America, I believe), transitioning actually reduces your chances of being murdered statistically.

People have been fed the line that transwomen are oppressed and get murdered, all the time, so much, that it's difficult to shake that belief.

The screenshot splits the cohort into those with a GRC and those without. But either way it's less than if they had remained men.

15% is the claim there for genital surgery. Most men seem to just want bigger breasts than the hormones can provide.

www.lifesitenews.com/news/more-people-are-getting-sex-change-surgeries-than-ever-before-but-its-not-w

Can someone give me a link to the 80% of transwomen are hetero/keep their penis?

I need to use it somewhere

Catmint

This has some stats about safety in the UK and the appropriation of stats regarding trans in countries like Brazil.

mirandayardley.com/en/peter-tatchell-and-the-assassination-of-the-womens-liberation-movement/

In the UK there are more trans identified male perps than there are victims so it is hard to take someone serious who claims the women should be displaced by the trans identified males.