Stats on why we have women and men sports?

That's Fallon Fox, isn't it? I agree it's horrible to watch. I've seen a couple of videos of Hannah Mouncey and Caroline Layt too, and think it's unsafe to allow them to play against women.

Sadly they are the tip of the iceberg, because until 2 years ago the IOC mandated surgery; the fact that men no longer have to undergo any medical treatment obviously open the floodgates.

Not to mention that at schools level, boys who identify as girls are allowed to compete with no treatment, no restrictions at all. It's obvious to me that it's unfair that boys can compete against girls when they are 100%, physically, male. And if they are going to allow it, they should allow all boys to compete, not just the special "I feel girly" ones. That way the ridiculousness will be exposed, and we can sort an alternative for girls who aren't male

I agree. In some sports ie boxing I don’t think it’s possible. There is a video on YouTube of a world champion female MMA fighter fighting a male who had a few fights but wasn’t exceptional. In fact she far outclassed him in aggression and skill. Yet he won in the second round. It has some interesting statistics during the fight that tie in with what was posted above in regards to bone density, strength, muscle mass. I could post the link but it’s very painful to watch.

That's fair enough RaySwan, suggesting mixed competition for some sports is grand. Even removing sex segregation from all sport, while not something I agree with, is at least logical.

Allowing some men to compete as women on their say-so seems really odd to me. Either all together or separate by some definable criteria.

I guess men aren’t worried about trans people because they aren’t threatened as much by just another guy to compete against. It’s different for women as they don’t have the same physicality as men.

True, but if you just put women against men then isn’t that simplistic. I’m 6”1 and probably tall on average to a man my age but I will never be a basketball star. I will never be able to compete in hundreds of fields for that matter.

I think men have indeed an advantage beyond mere testosterone levels.

The thing is, if you have a natural advantage (height, strength, build, sex) you may feel it is just your "natural advantage", I am not sure men are very vocal about the trans issue with women's sports, are they?

As a 6ft1 woman, I often have an advantage of height over other women, and it is something I see as my "perk", an advantage bestowed on me by luck/nature

It does not mean, however, that on average men are not taller and stronger than women. They are.

The trans issue, and self-identification will ruin women's sports, I think...

I would like to see some diversity in these sports. I don’t see a downside at all and it’s a shame that we are segregated.

Yes I agree it would be an advantage (height and reach) not strength though. And anything in snooker is achievable through practice. There are lots of Chinese players on the snooker circuit now who aren’t very tall.

Some players are naturals at snooker, for most it is a learned sport. But even the very best have to practice 6-8 hours per day, every day.

RaySwan i imagine longer reach is an advantage & also general height as you are bending over the table? (As a teenager my greater height was an advantage at snooker over my smaller but more skilled brother)
Although just a theory & i dont know if that's born out by the ranking players?

Fascinating discussion. I play snooker and pool and have been beaten by a woman before. It isn’t about strength as if you are hitting a snooker ball hard then you aren’t doing it right.
I think it’s purely a socialism thing and I recognise that snooker hall would be intimidating to women. I can’t see any other barrier other than lack of practice.

This is an interesting article

The physiologist is from NZ where it seems acceptable to talk about these things. In the US/Canada she probably would be silenced. She is only specifically talking about testosterone, but it's clear that much more research is needed on all differences in male and female anatomy and what advantage can be gained.

Otherwise get rid of sport segregation by sex - at least be honest about it

This is one (of the many) things that peak transed me and one of the things that upsets me most.

I have a young female relative who excels at a sport and is highly successful at a regional level with ambitions at national level over the next few years.

I've watched and admired her determination, training six times a week around school commitments since she was about 11 years old.

It breaks my heart that she might reach national and international levels - the pinnacle of all her sacrifice and dreams to have it stolen from her by someone much bigger and stronger who feels like a girl inside. Someone whom would probably be a very average male athlete.

here is an article about how women's world records are generally about 90% that of men's

Snooker tables and snooker balls are massive though - reach also makes a difference, men are at a clear advantage being bigger, and being able to hit the ball harder, and yes Waddle, it seems to me that accuracy can only be improved by speed, and also that if you're throwing at the middle of your strength range, you'll likely be more accurate than if you're having to put everything into it.

Plus of course, as everyone says, socialisation. I've been in a snooker hall, and it was intimidating.

I think darts and snooker are mostly socialisation sports. Get women on a shooting range and they golden.

On the darts question I wonder if it's because the harder you can throw the dart the more accurate it's trajectory? (I am extrapolating from archery.)

This 2014 study suggests that elite female athletes have slightly lower-than-normal testosterone levels.

There is also evidence that endurance/strenuous exercise lowers testosterone in males, with other types of exercise increasing testosterone ( www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6429357?dopt=Abstract , www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7400007?dopt=Abstract , www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3343919?dopt=Abstract , www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6500790?dopt=Abstract ).

This suggests that the effects of non-endurance sports increases the difference between female and male testosterone levels.

Good question, Maid

The study I was thinking of was of 2000 female olympic athletes (some with PCOS, who typically came out about 2.5nmol/litre, with women without PCOS coming out at about 1.5). Was resting levels, I think (testosterone spikes after vigorous exercise in both sexes, which is sometimes used to deliberately muddy the waters in a "look, these immediately post-race levels in natal women are close to the 10nmol/litre level").

I don't know about the general population - though Iwear's website seems to be for the population at large rather than athletes specifically.

The value appears to be for total testosterone. This website gives the detailed normal ranges for testosterone in ng/dL units. This website gives the conversion factors from nmol/L to ng/dL among other units.

10 nmol/L gives a value of 288.42 ng/dL. This is in the normal range for all males from the age of 12 years (except for 17-18 years, which seems odd) assuming this is total testosterone.

The maximum value for the normal range of testosterone for females is 60 ng/dL. This is less than a quarter of that value, even though 288.42 ng/dL is at the very low end of the male testosterone values (although still in normal range all but one of the age bands).

The standard deviations for the values are not shown. But any female with that level of testosterone has clearly abnormal blood biochemistry.

IIRC the limit of 10nmol/litre is 5 standard deviations above the mean for the female distribution
The thing that’s never been clear to me about this fact (not doubting veracity, BTW) is whether the female distribution is ‘female on street’ or ‘female athlete’. One might reasonably speculate that the distribution of T amongst female athletes is higher than your average female (because it will have been selected for in the athletic cohort).

I presume it's sexism that has different men's and women's competitions for things like darts and snooker?
Both are ‘open’, meaning females can compete in all competitions. That there are female-only competitions is recognition that females are not good enough to win the open competitions.

As TheBrilliantMistake points out we should also take into consideration male upbringing, society's expectations of boys vs girls in sport when children as well as traditional supports (including financial) and encouragement for boys.

Watching young girls and boys play team sports separately is interesting. The girls (generally) are encouraging each other, apologising for hurting the opposition, feeling guilty if they are winning by too much and are watched by parents who are enjoying watching them play. The boys, on the other hand, are pushed to win, they are yelled at aggressively by many parents and coaches, they are encouraged to beat the other team by as high a score as possible, they are belittled if they are "nice" to the other team.

Obviously there are exceptions, but I think that the boys come out with a competitive edge - apart from the many who really don't enjoy being yelled at and beaten, or who aren't deemed good enough and who give up, but that's another story.

There have been massive advances in girls' sports in the last 20/30 years or so. It will be sad to see all those go out the window as the very best women are beaten my mediocre men

I think it's great that football is attempting to do something with girls in the sport, and removing the barriers (many still remain).
Trying to compensate with the age differences vs physicality might not be perfect, but it's a decent attempt at things. I'm all for it.

Once the girls become women, and the boys become men though, it's nigh on impossible to equalise (see what I did there?) the differences. I don't have any answer for that.

Snooker / darts etc I've no clue why men and women can't be equal in that, but I suspect the historical cultures of these sports doesn't help.

I presume it's sexism that has different men's and women's competitions for things like darts and snooker? Curling and some types of bowling are mixed teams, even at Olympic level.

Here's something to chew on: my son plays football in an U13 team. In his league, girls can play on a mixed team or an all girls team but because the league is so small, they also play against the all boys teams. Girls can play in teams up to two years below their birth age - ie girls who would otherwise be in an U15 team can play in an U13 team. Because 15 year old girls might be bigger than 13 year old boys, but even at that age the boys are as strong and fast as girls two years older...