Stats on why we have women and men sports?

Sorry, I'm catching up.

No-one is saying "sorry, tough for them, they can't play any sport". Male bodied transgender people can continue to play in the mens category, in any sport, or play as one of the male competitors in mixed sport, or play for fun. What they shouldn't be allowed to do is what they are doing - mediocre men are declaring themselves to be women and winning women's sport at a much higher level.

The vast majority of people will never be world champions. We don't allow 16 stone men who aren't very good at boxing to identify as being 11 stone so they have a chance of winning the flyweight division. Or allow 70 kg women rowers who aren't very good to identify as 57 kg so they can row lightweight. No-one would ever say that was ok.

So why allow men to identify as women to have a chance of winning?

And transmen can compete as women if they are not taking and never have taken male hormones (so just ticked an M box).

For a woman to take testosterone would be cheating (see Soviet Union athletic records ), so transmen surely shouldn't be allowed to.

"what's the alternative?" - to let people with male bodies compete in the men's category and people with female bodies compete in the women's category, obviously.

Why would there be any problem with that? After all, that's why it was categorised by SEX (not by gender feelz or whether the competitor wears a dress when not competing).

I don't get why anyone would think any other way about this.

Precisely, so how can sport find a way to create safe and meaningful competition for them? Not at the expense of women is an obvious answer, but it doesn't help the what sport itself seeks to achieve.
Creating an open category?
There are lots of sports where sex isn't a huge advantage, trans people who want to compete could take part in one of those? Or in a mixed sport?

There's also a difference between "friendly" sport and elite sport. Friendly sport can afford to be more inclusive.

Finally many sports have disability categories - I can't see the difference there to having a trans category also for competitive sport.

If you knackered your knees it probably is

I captained our first team against the men's 4th team actually. We lost. I've also competed nationally is the mixed version so play against men, and know just how imbalanced that can be.

The thing about doping is more complex than it seems; I use inhalers that were I not able to prove my medically diagnosed condition would be considered performance enhancers. Transmen I expect usually have medically diagnosed conditions, so you've got the complication of consistency; shouldn't you then allow the use of that medication? It's not as simple as it all seems.

I'll have a good long think about it, but I'm struggling to come to terms with any solution that says "tough for some people, sport's just not for them" - and I don't think that's socialisation (although perhaps it is), I think it's sport.

"Walking" teams - I think this means that your sport is probably the one I used to play, till my knees got too knackered to continue.

So, do you think your women's first team ("ladies" is another giveaway as to which sport, which is connected with the class origins of the sport in question) could take on your men's 1st, 2nd, 3rd... team? Where's the cutoff.

Thinking about football for instance, it wasn't so long back that Farnborough (non-league team) had a good FA cup run, and happened to find themselves on a training camp in Spain at the same time as the England women's team. They had a friendly - Farnborough won. They were about 6 tiers down the men's national game, playing a women's international side.

(Socialisation and history play a big role too, of course - the story of Dick Kerr Ladies is a fascinating and sobering one - the FA were so terrified of the success of women's football, they banned women from playing on FA affiliated grounds altogether. But physical strength - speed, the ability to kick the ball a long way, the height to "cover the goal mouth" or win balls in the air, the strength and weight to contest another player - these are a massive part of the game.

And no-one's saying transmen who've taken testosterone can't play at all - they just can't play women's sport if they're effective testosterone doping. Men's sport is open to them. Mixed sport is open to them. Or they could lay off the testosterone (as transmen who choose to get pregnant do) in order to continue to play women's sport - nothing's stopping them doing that either.

It's more the mentality of particular sport which I've been brought up with I think; one of the primary drivers in my sport is to get as many people as possible playing it; those that are too old, too fat, too unathletic*; we find ways to incorporate them because at the end of the day we love what we do - we live for it - and we want everyone to have the chance to feel that way. I suspect the government's motivations are more financial...

*By evidence for this there are 7 mens and 7 ladies teams in my club, 4 "development" teams, vets teams, over 40s, 50s, 60s, children's age group teams, 4 mixed gender teams, indoor teams, training sessions for people who have never played before, and we're considering introducing a session for the newly founded "walking" version of our sport which has recently taken off.

I can feel very sorry for the hard path in life the transman has chosen to take, because it will be a hard path. That doesn't mean I have to let people with elevated levels of testosterone continue to play women's sport simply because I feel sorry for them.

It could easily have been said by men in sport in days gone by that they appreciate how hard women have it in life, but unfortunately sport's just not for them; they're not as strong or as quick, golf/football/cricket/rugby, they're clearly men's sports. The clubs, the people with the money, they shouldn't be spreading their resources trying to incorporate this group to the disadvantage of men already competing. And if women really want to get involved, they can go and sort it out for themselves.

Thankfully (for me) sport disagreed.

Do I detect a hint of female socialisation at work here? "How do I make it nice so no-one gets left out, because that would be sad?" How about "How do I make it fair while accepting that some people just don't get to play - too old, too fat, too unathletic, too male, too much artificial substantance in their blood?"

I can feel very sorry for the hard path in life the transman has chosen to take, because it will be a hard path. That doesn't mean I have to let people with elevated levels of testosterone continue to play women's sport simply because I feel sorry for them.

Transmen can't compete as women once they're taking testosterone, because they would be ineligible under doping regulations.

Precisely, so how can sport find a way to create safe and meaningful competition for them? Not at the expense of women is an obvious answer, but it doesn't help the what sport itself seeks to achieve.

As for what the views of women in sport are, we don't know because we're not allowing them to say.

I'm going to go looking now, but are you sure? Even without speaking out publicly they would certainly be appealing to their sports' governing bodies, and that would surely be reflected in policy? And couldn't it equally be the case that a very many sportswomen support the current way of doing things (whilst of course retaining the right to criticise individual cases where they might think their sport "got it wrong")?

Transmen can't compete as women once they're taking testosterone, because they would be ineligible under doping regulations.

As for what the views of women in sport are, we don't know because we're not allowing them to say. We're creating a climate of fear where women can see how grossly unfair the situation is, but they're not allowed to comment for fear of being villified, hounded on line, accused of transphobia. See for instance, the reaction to Andrea Yarwood, or the look on the other women's faces on podium shots of Jillian Bearden (Beardsley?), Laurel Hubbard. See the post match interview with Fallon Fox's victim after Fox had broken her eye socket.

Everyone has to sing from the hymn sheet of "it's lovely and inclusive" while rolling their eyes.

You want a transwoman athlete I really admire - how about this:
www.theguardian.com/football/2014/aug/29/jaiyah-saelua-transgender-footballer-interview
This is a transwoman playing international men's football, because she recognises that that's where she should be playing, and I massively admire her for it.

I completely understand where you're coming from, and I want to see that as a solution, but is it? Should transmen continue to compete as women? Or should all trans people compete as men?

Given that sports governing bodies segregate to ensure safe and meaningful competition for all competitors (not specifically to ensure safe and meaningful competition for women it would seem), how would this be achieved in this scenario?

Or should all transpeople have their own leagues? Is this kind of segregation going to be beneficial, and is it even something that's being called for by those - including women - participating within sport? I'd be really interested to know which sportswomen are speaking out about this actually, and to see what those involved are specifically calling for.

I really hope there is an alternative solution that works for what sport itself wants to achieve because frankly that would be easiest for everyone, but so far it evades me, and it would seem it is evading those in control of the sports themselves as well.

The solution is quite simple - do not let transwoman play women's sport, because they are and will always remain biologically male and biology is what matters when it comes to sport. They can continue to play men's sport if they want or play one of the many sports out there that are mixed sex but they should not be playing women's sport.

So provided an individual ticks the "female" box and has a testosterone level for a year at under X (X currently being equivalent to approximately 5 times the higher end of normal for a woman and approximately the lower end of normal for a man, but who knows where it is going), they can compete as a woman no questions asked.

As far as I can tell the IAAF came to that decision by sitting down with a load of medical experts, so surely there is some merit to it? But even as a flawed test, what's the alternative?

A far smaller proportion of trans people participate in sport to the levels considered healthy (and therefore cost effective regarding health spending) than in the general population, both men and women - I was reading a government paper the other day. So both they and the sports governing bodies themselves are keen to find a way to include them.

What's the solution?

I think the only case by case basis should be for genuine intersex people personally. And even then it needs to be as fair as possible. If trans people want to transition, then they no longer compete, or compete with the men still. This goes for TIFs too, if they are on T as it is doping really.

The "case by case" solution used to be part of the Olympic Committee requirements - each case would be individually considered. Now they (and it seems most other sporting bodies) are jumping straight to self-id.

And self-id can't be questioned, considered on an individual basis or challenged at all. To do so would be transphobia

So provided an individual ticks the "female" box and has a testosterone level for a year at under X (X currently being equivalent to approximately 5 times the higher end of normal for a woman and approximately the lower end of normal for a man, but who knows where it is going), they can compete as a woman no questions asked.

Apologies my link on VO2 max did not work (it's worth a read) www.mytreadmilltrainer.com/vo2-max-men-women.html

I'm interested in this to OP and will read later. In the meantime I was looking over the weekend for all the participation requirements for different sports and found the following article, originally from "Law in sport", which lists several of them towards the end. They vary greatly, but most include some provision for looking at things on a case by case basis, which I think is important.

Someone should tell Molly Cameron that she'd be better picking a sport that doesn't require tight lycra. I can see her cock quite clearly

Silly analogy but if you could self classify a horse (as a man ) and then enter it in a men's 100m race then there would be uproar.

Sorry, did you just call my analogy silly. Since when have horses had the ability to talk.

The fight I’m refering to was Lucia Rijker.

If we are talking about cycling, we should really mention Molly Cameron - she is currently (I think) competing as a man, but wants to compete as a woman.

Ironically she has apparently now been told she can't compete in the men's events any more because she is legally female [completely and utterly baffled]

Men aren't worried because it doesn't affect them directly. Silly analogy but if you could self classify a horse (as a man ) and then enter it in a men's 100m race then there would be uproar.

As well as the strength and muscle advantages, men and women cannot complete in any activity that has a cardiovascular or aerobic fitness aspect. Men have a staggeringly higher ability to power muscles with oxygen than women (measured as VO2max). In short our muscles can extract more oxygen from the blood than women's muscles can. This accumulation of advantages makes equality in competition impossible.
www.mytreadmilltrainer.com/vo2-max-men-women.htm

First paragraph a bit garbled there sorry.
Actually I heared somewhere that Jillian Bearden came first and another Transgender woman came second in the biggest female cycling race in Arizona. This would not surprise me and it's a sign of what's to come.

cycling.today/transgender-cyclist-dominates-womens-cycling-race/

Transhender Cyclist wins in female category. It does help having far greater lung capacity, muscle density and the ability blood oxygenation capabilities than non trans female competitors.

They say all Transgender sportspeople should be free to compete as their chosen gender without ANY medical intervention.