Stats on why we have women and men sports?

Many people do "choose sport as the most important thing ". Including the women who train all their lives only to be beaten to the tape/scholarship/place on the team by men.

Some men (Laurel Hubbard may be one) aren't good enough, or are too old, or not big enough or whatever to win as men and discover they can tick a box, and hey-ho, their world championship/international place/Olympic medal is back in reach.

There may be some men who transition and then think "oh, it would be lovely to take up cycling again" and then discover they are good at it. But self-id opens it all up to any man for whom sport (and winning) is the most important thing to vastly improve his chances [cynical]

And get this; he can just go back to being a man when he's done, if he wants to. He's had no surgery. No medical diagnosis. Some men don't even need hormone treatment, some need some form of testosterone suppressant for one year, but having beaten (or beaten the shit out of) a bunch of women he can then go back to his real life if he wants to.

Leaving behind a woman who has trained her whole life and come 2nd, having her whole future altered by not being a world champion with all the benefits that brings - financial support, job opportunities etc.

And I would be very into sport - my wider family play many sports at a high level. In not one of those sports are women in general be able to win if competing against men. And some where it is downright dangerous to expect them to

What is your view of a 70 kg woman being allowed to self-identify as 57 kg and rowing lightweight, by the way? After all, I'm sure she's slim and fit inside. You can argue to get rid of the lightweight category, that's fine, I have no issue with that. But if you have such a category, surely you must allow referees to use weighing scales, not have competitors declare their weight by ticking forms.

I think it might be because we have given hundreds of ways in which thousands of girls/women will be negatively affected, and yet you are still saying you are on the fence and worrying about a few men who feel they are women [cynical]

It's disproportionate numbers wise; therefore I believe you are one of those who appears to be happy to chuck (large numbers of) women under the proverbial bus for the sake of (a few) men.

Tell me why we should be more concerned about men who have decided to go down this trans path rather than women who have no choice but to be women?

And if it's not possible to treat everyone "fairly", do you think it's women who should lose out?

No, no, I don't think it's offensive; I used to think much the same thing - you either transition or you play sports; simples. For me though I think I was just of the opinion that anyone who didn't choose sport as the most important thing in the lives didn't deserve to have it! Such is my love for sport.

Obviously the years rolled on and now I don't know what to think, although I come at this from the angle of someone more "up for" trans inclusion - if at all possible - that many here it would seem.

I'm with MaryZ.

@RatRolyPoly Shotsfired are you very much involved with sport? There's an underlying ethos of inclusion and participation. It isn't the same as being a pilot. Access to sport is generally considered something that should be universal in a modern society. I for one subscribe to this, and I'm trying to see if or how that ethos can survive.

Not any more, but I was. Access is one thing, but competing is a different level, right? Playing a sport for fun, leisure, health, friendship etc, I don't think anyone has ever said anybody in any body was unwelcome (and I have direct personal experience of transfolk joining in with my club/team).

But when you look at formal competition, that's when my comment about life being unfair kicks in. We don't allow (for example) dopers to take part in the Tour De France as they have an inherent and unfair advantage to the rest of the participants - tough shit Lance. Nobody thinks that's unfair or wrong, do they?

And for the tiny minority of transwomen involved in female competitive sport, then I am afraid, yes, tough luck to them too. They have an inherent advantage in their biological makeup as we have seen. It's unfair, unsporting and actively detrimental to the natal female participants who would otherwise earn the medals and records.

I am sorry if you feel that is offensive, but for me, the greater win for the huge mass of young sportswomen overrides the wishes of a very few individuals to effectively "cheat" the system in this way.

As I said, life's unfair - for all of us in one way or another. I'm not willing to deliberately make it more unfair for natal sportswomen as a whole.

You've got me wrong Maryz!

I can't express to you how strange it is to be suspected of disingenuousness or indeed not caring about women when the POV I'm expressing is so far from unusual amongst the women (and feminists!) with whom I acquaint!

And yet I see how society is incorporating transpeople - perhaps not always in the best way possible - and I think I'm not so unusual after all, so why on Mumsnet am I received with such incredulity??

Actually, on re-reading this thread I've come to a conclusion.

I apologise if I've got you wrong RatRolyPoly, but it seems to me that you either (a) genuinely don't give a shit about men competing unfairly against women or (b) are being willfully disingenuous.

I can't believe, after all the facts, stats and links on this thread you are still saying "oh well, we must include men who say they are women, poor things".

"There's an underlying ethos of inclusion and participation" - of course there is. And one of the things they are most trying to encourage these days is women's (and girls') participation in sport.

One guaranteed way to make an entire class of girls give up sport is to tell them they have to compete with boys. They will always (on average) lose. And then if they have to share changing rooms with those same boys that won't help.

This is happening in schools today. Boys are announcing they are girls and taking over.

Sports bodies may be going out of their way to include transwomen, but in doing so are excluding women. Which isn't very inclusive in my opinion.

Complaints having been made as to football being played by women, Council felt impelled to express the strong opinion that the game of football is quite unsuitable for females and should not be encouraged.

From the FA Resolution banning women's teams from playing on their grounds.

Socialisation and history play a big role too, of course - the story of Dick Kerr Ladiess^ is a fascinating and sobering one - the FA were so terrified of the success of women's football, they banned women from playing on FA affiliated grounds altogether.

There was an excellent C4 documentary about this.

titchy, yes, I got that, but I thought you were questioning my posting "as if there were no alternatives". I was just explaining that I'm posting from the POV of the current status quo.

Given that, I'm obviously more drawn to solutions to the current perceived problems that build on the current policies rather than seek to go backwards and start from scratch. I can see that's what a lot of people want, but I think it's unrealistic, certainly in the short term.

Honestly I'm just keen to hear the alternatives,

I gave you four alternatives....

Ski Jumping

Men consistently jump further than women. It's one of the many reasons why The Jump TV show is a pile of rubbish.

Last 3 World Records Chronologically

Men (bolded figure is in metres)

15 February 2015 Anders Fannemel Norway Vikersundbakken Vikersund, Norway 251.5 275 825
18 March 2017 Robert Johansson Norway Vikersundbakken Vikersund, Norway 252 275.6 827
18 March 2017 Stefan Kraft Austria Vikersundbakken Vikersund, Norway 253.5 277.2 832

Women

9 February 1997 Eva Ganster Austria Kulm Tauplitz/Bad Mitterndorf, Austria 167 182.6 548
29 January 2003 Daniela Iraschko-Stolz Austria Kulm Tauplitz/Bad Mitterndorf, Austria 188 205.6 617
29 January 2003 Daniela Iraschko-Stolz Austria Kulm Tauplitz/Bad Mitterndorf, Austria 200 218.7 656

who is "they"? Men arent tge default, they didnt "let" women play. Women have always played sport in womens teams because 2) Categorizing into women and men allows 99.9% of the population to compete safely and fairly.

Well there you go, I didn't say the they was "men", in fact it's quite clear from my previous posts I mean sports governing bodies, sponsors and facilitators - although historically they have obviously included proportionally more men. There have been whole networks of clubs and leagues in particular sports that are entirely run for and by men and that dominate to the point of being that sport. Women didn't go away and try and build that up for themselves, those sports realised they weren't "owned" by the men who dominated them and expanded their resources to not exclude women.

You post as if there are no options for trans people to do sports - in fact there are plenty of options.

Honestly I'm just keen to hear the alternatives, because the way I'm most familiar with is the current norm of competing alongside transwomen. I'm also open to hearing the pitfalls.

Rat do you think women’s sport was created by men to enable fluffy women to play and stop them bleating on about being excluded? Do you see any value in women’s sport for women themselves?

No, I don't think that, see previous post. I hugely value women's sport on both a personal and societal level. I'm not sure I've answered your question?

Access to sport is generally considered something that should be universal in a modern society

No-one says trans people can't or shouldn't be able to access sport. Competing however is different, and the playing field, pun not intended, needs to be even. If that means trans people have to delay transition, or compete against their biological sex, then so be it.

You post as if there are no options for trans people to do sports - in fact there are plenty of options.

exactly as it was when they created nice, fluffy ways for women to take part.
ODFOD. 1) who is "they"? Men arent tge default, they didnt "let" women play. Women have always played sport in womens teams because 2) Categorizing into women and men allows 99.9% of the population to compete safely and fairly. It's a totally sane way to manage things.
Proposing to enable trans competitors to compete in categories with their identified sex is neither safe nor fair for men or women.
Your misogyny is showing now

why is it up to women to create a nice fluffy way for them to take part?

It isn't up to women though is it, it's up to the sports governing bodies, exactly as it was when they created nice, fluffy ways for women to take part.

Shotsfired are you very much involved with sport? There's an underlying ethos of inclusion and participation. It isn't the same as being a pilot. Access to sport is generally considered something that should be universal in a modern society. I for one subscribe to this, and I'm trying to see if or how that ethos can survive.

@RatRolyPoly I'll have a good long think about it, but I'm struggling to come to terms with any solution that says "tough for some people, sport's just not for them"

Well, life isn't fair, is it?

I wanted very much to be a pilot, but neither my maths or my finances were up to it. I might be able to do a PPL and fly a little light aircraft round local airfields one day. But I'm never going to be telling an A380 full of people I am about to fly them to Sydney.

Continuing with my tortured analogy to the trans in sport thing, it would be akin to me taking the place of an experienced captain and letting me have a go because I said I was a pilot, I felt to my very core I was a pilot and so therefore I should be entitled to take the stick. And anyone who questions me is committing literal violence against my pilot-ness.

why is it up to women to create a nice fluffy way for them to take part? There are several solutions:

a) compete with your biological sex - if that means not taking artificial hormones then so be it. You have a choice to make as to where your priorities lie - competing or transitioning.

b) train in a different sport where your sex doesn't matter - equestrian, shooting, archery, mixed team sports.

c) don't compete. Go running or to the gym or cycling for the sheer pleasure of it.

d) lobby for a separate category - perhaps added to the paralympic categories where there is a precedent of several categories for the same event.