Stats on why we have women and men sports?

RatRolyPoly

Waddle you appear to have taken one single post in isolation and inferred that I have no concern for womens' safety, which you will see from my other posts I am very much concerned with.

Then why is your moral compass not 'concerned'? Surely people getting hurt physically overrides other concerns?

All I can see is that even if it could be made entirely safe and fair for transwomen to compete in the women's competition that would still be unsatisfactory for many. And that, I suppose, is that

Well, to some degree, yes. That is my position. Transwomen are not women, so why should they get to compete in the women's competitions?

If I have a disability, I don't get to compete in any Paralympic category I want, I have to go in the correct category for my disability (sight / lower limb / upper limb / LD etc). Why should a man get to choose to compete in my category because he feels like he is a woman?

I also note that the IOC have done away with case by case and expert panels so that's irrelevant and are going with self-id.

Can you link me please?

Honestly Maryz I very enjoy debating these things with you, but I'm just about done in with this today. Mumsnet, broaden your horizons and all that, I feel like I've been beaten up. I'm going to make a cup of tea and interact with my children and cry and think about your question. I'm not avoiding it.

I've just realised the reference to Expert Panels is now out of date. They used to be there to check up on transexuals

I was shocked to realise by the way (via google) that guidelines used to refer to "eligibility of athletes who have undergone sex reassignment surgery" - that's gone by the boards now, but they used to be checked by a medical panel to confirm the surgery and check the hormone levels.

I also note that the IOC have done away with case by case and expert panels so that's irrelevant and are going with self-id.

So RatRolyPoly we are back to the question of whether any man who wants to should be allowed to compete as a woman. And if not, how will we stop him?

Me: the case they're citing refers specifically to intersex individuals with partial or complete androgen insensitivity so in my opinion should not be generalised to transwomen with fully male biology and perfectly functioning androgen receptors.

You: but it's from a site called " law in sport".

I wasn't appealing to authority, you misunderstand, it is about context. It is from a law site so about legal aspects of transgenderism in sport. It cites a legal case simply to demonstrate a repercussion of the testosterone based participation criteria, that being the case of an intersex athlete who was initially excluded on the basis of testosterone levels, but later reinstated on legal challenge.

So completely relevant in the context of the article.

Not a misrepresentation of anything, because the author wasn't trying to assert anything at all.

Well I don't think anyone seriously thinks we can convince you, Rat - we are primarily articulating arguments on each side for the benefit of the lurkers.

You know what, I finally agree with you.

Don't worry, OnTheList, we have proceeded about 0.0000001 cm in the argument in the last 80 posts.

Well I don't think anyone seriously thinks we can convince you, Rat - we are primarily articulating arguments on each side for the benefit of the lurkers.

To take one example:

You: here's a link to law in sport

Me: the case they're citing refers specifically to intersex individuals with partial or complete androgen insensitivity so in my opinion should not be generalised to transwomen with fully male biology and perfectly functioning androgen receptors.

You: but it's from a site called " law in sport".

Rat for your future reference that particular flawed line of argument is known as "appeal to authority". It doesn't work.

Don't worry your comment makes perfect sense and is entirely relevant to the thread.

Wow sorry, I had this page open since this morning and had not refreshed. Else I would have read the rest of the thread before commenting. Theres like an extra 80 posts since 8am

The solution is quite simple - do not let transwoman play women's sport, because they are and will always remain biologically male and biology is what matters when it comes to sport. They can continue to play men's sport if they want or play one of the many sports out there that are mixed sex but they should not be playing women's sport.

Indeed.

I completely understand where you're coming from, and I want to see that as a solution, but is it? Should transmen continue to compete as women? Or should all trans people compete as men?

Transmen should compete as women, if they are not on testosterone. if they are on testosterone, then they also compete with men.

Neither male people who are transitioning (or not transitioning, in the case of Laurel Hubbard ) nor female people on testosterone, will have an advantage over 'regular' male people. So the male league is whats fairest. They still get to compete, but they do not have an unfair advantage. I suspect that would not be good enough though, as the advantage is whats attractive.

Ok well as none of us are experts I don't see any point in further continuing this discussion. Anyway I have a cake to ice. Peace out ladies.

Testosterone levels that were varied to allow intersex competitors to compete as women (which is another issue altogether) are being used to allow men to compete as women.

Have I misunderstood then? I though testosterone levels that were introduced to allow the participation of trans athletes had to be revised so as not to exclude intersex competitors, as per that article.

You do realise that the "case by case basis" and the EXPERT MEDICAL PANEL are deciding whether the man in question genuinely feels like a woman, not whether he has an unfair advantage over women

Are you sure? Can you link me sources please?

There can't be commonality of purpose. You have to decide that you agree either

(1) for reasons of fairness and safety women should compete separately from men in the sports where they currently do so; or

(2) any man can self-id as a woman and compete in the women's section (provided that he can prove he's managed to have a slightly lower than average male testosterone level for a year).

You have to choose a side. There is no middle ground. Get off the fucking fence and decide who you are going to stand up for.

Ereshkigal seriously, what exactly do you hope to achieve with that comment? For me to go away? No-one's making you engage with me. It can be like the playground if you like, if you fail at ditching me off you can all just take your self-affirming games somewhere else and hope I don't follow you, right? Jeez.

Do you not think "expert panels" have the potential to be influenced by politics?

You do realise that the "case by case basis" and the EXPERT MEDICAL PANEL are deciding whether the man in question genuinely feels like a woman, not whether he has an unfair advantage over women. So provided he can prove he's a "genuine" transwomen (there is no physical test, by the way, just a box tick) they will pass him. So we are back to my questions:

Do you think that some men should be able to compete in the women's category? If so

How do we decide which men are allowed to and which aren't?

(it used to be a medical investigation, now it's a tick box sefl id plus a testosterone level test, it's becoming tick box only - where would you draw the line?)

If your answer is "let any man tick a box to say he's a woman and then he can compete in the women's category" we have a problem. Because that means any man who wants to can compete as a woman, so effectively getting rid of sex segregation which you yourself was there to make sport fair.

It's circular - where are you opting out of the circle?

The Olympic Committee have completely opted out. Self id is here The IOC has announced there will be no sex or gender testing for Korea 2018

Testosterone levels that were varied to allow intersex competitors to compete as women (which is another issue altogether) are being used to allow men to compete as women.

Would you let her play?

I'm not one of the experts enlisted to make that decision, but for what little I know I agree with their decision. I'm all for expert panels and considering things on a case by case basis.

All I can see is that even if it could be made entirely safe and fair for transwomen to compete in the women's competition that would still be unsatisfactory for many. And that, I suppose, is that.

Maybe don't waste any more of your valuable empathising time?

I don't think anyone would have an issue with trans women competing alongside women if it was fair and safe. I think most of us think it won't be fair or safe.
What sports do you think it will be fair and safe for TW to compete in alongside women?

You've mentioned the "status quo" recently, which appears to be categorise athletes on the basis of gender ID.

That may be what it "appears" to be, but what precisely it is is listed quite extensively for many sports in the link I previously provided.

I guess I was hoping for some commonality of purpose, or at least to understand why we aren't finding any. All I can see is that even if it could be made entirely safe and fair for transwomen to compete in the women's competition that would still be unsatisfactory for many. And that, I suppose, is that.

What about Hannah Mouncey? Currently banned from womens Australian Football due to safety concerns, she is joining the women's Australian handball team. She is 6'3" and weighed 16 stone when playing in the men's handball team.
She is appealing the decision not to let her play AFL as a woman. Would you let her play?
amp.theage.com.au/afl/womens-afl/hannah-mouncey-visits-afl-house-after-failing-to-get-information-from-officials-20180202-h0swtp.html

inferred that I have no concern for womens' safety, which you will see from my other posts I am very much concerned with.

Waddle you appear to have taken one single post in isolation and inferred that I have no concern for womens' safety, which you will see from my other posts I am very much concerned with.