Men who destroy their families - help me understand

Of course that’s not offensive, but that’s not what people were objecting to. Sigh. Never mind.

Oh I see we have had the normal influx of "women do it to".
It's so boring.
Men do 99% of it. Can we talk about the 99% please? And while we are at it, can we stop with the bullshit like "empathy is learnt ". It would be nice if for starters men took responsibility for male violence.

It's not offensive to say that if you're abused you're more likely to go on and abuse.
It's particularly pertinent when the abuse is lifelong. They won't know any other way to show love, care, respect, etc. everything but the abuse will feel foreign and wrong.
I think the only key to doing things differently is being able to recognise what's happened, why it's wrong and what you can do to prevent it happening (to your husband/wife/children).

I'd be a very rich much less busy woman (I work with victims of primarily male violence) if I knew all the answers or the way to stop it that doesn't include the abuser wanting to stop it.

I don't understand all of it and I see it or hear about it all the time. I can listen and be there for victims and hold hands and tell them it's not them. But whenever someone asks me "why" it's happened to them and why he's done x y and z unfortunately I can't give much of an answer.

If we start saying men are essentially violent, then in my view we're saying that biology is destiny, and I don't believe that, for one minute

I don't think feminists are saying that - at least not the 2nd wave from 70s women's lib movements - they're saying that the structure of our society, and the ways that we're conditioned or socialised into gendered roles, enable, facilitate, even encourage men to be violent, in order to prove that they're really "men."

To challenge this is to be compassionate towards men, as well as women.

But you have to see beyond individuals & fit personal experience into wider patterns and structures.

I work with many fantastic men, have a loving DH and fantastic DS who sometimes wonders aloud if I am sexist sad (but he does understand), maybe I am.

Going back to the OP - First thing is to try to explain to your son that 'sexism' is a term we use as a shorthand for the systematic and structural oppression of women as a class. It's about broad and systemic imbalances in power, and not just about individuals. It is not a level playing field, and where there is a power imbalance, then the actions of the dominant class have to be understood differently from the actions of the oppressed category/class. Hence, a woman can't be (systemically) 'sexist' towards a man, because there is an underlying power imbalance in any and all of our interactions.

But yes, the anger is difficult isn't it? I call it the 'dark knowledge' that a feminist consciousness gives us.

I suppose you have to find a way of channelling it and work out what you can do in your own field of action, expertise & agency, to use this knowledge to try to make life better for women & girls. If you have spare money give it to Women's Aid for example. I teach and write, and I teach & write all the time from a feminist perspective. Others do far more practical useful work than I can do, but I calm myself by thinking - I'm doing my bit, as they are doing theirs. Best to do really well what we're good at.

But it is a constant dialectic, isn't it? Nice men one knows & loves & birthed, and then a world which socialises those men potentially to become monsters who annihilate their families.

Part of the problem for me is that we don't make visible the extent of the violence of patriarchy - we can't afford to as we live with & love individual men. But it's like fish don't realise that they swim in water ...

However, most mental illnesses and personality disorders are fairly equally spread between men and women - and the kids of these people generally have a terrible time - chaos, neglect, unpredictable cruelty, mind games, etc.

And because there's a hereditary component to mental illnesses and personality disorders, which also affects the method of 'nurture' too - this can run in families and seem that it is the abused who become abusers.

And as per the op it is overwhelmingly women who pick up the pieces, take responsibility for the children.

How about the relationship between male entitlement and male self-centeredness, violence, and lack of responsibility?

It is cultural/traditional and is being broken down slowly by the women's movement, but in most cultures men are/have been raised to think his spouse and offspring are his OWN possessions to use and abuse (or abandon to destitution).

The women's movement is only a tiny blip after generations of huge sex inequality.

The point I was making is that you don't become abusive unless you have an abusive background.

Well, I don't believe thats 100% true either.

Do you have a source for lesbians having the highest rate of domestic violence? I've never seen that, although I have seen that the rates actually include abuse from family and ex-partners so it's not necessarily female on female violence still, and more homophobic abuse by men.

This is the exact problem. Men are socially taught that expressing emotion in general is a taboo for them. That even the slightest tear means they're worthless. While I don't think a mental breakdown I'd a valid excuse there are certain, simple methods to prevent this. You need to be careful with him, but most of this problem tests on society''s shoulders. Do not become afraid of your own son.

Rates of domestic violence are at their HIGHEST in lesbian relationships, while they are at their LOWEST in gay relationships. I do believe this is a problem, but it's not "only" men who are like this.

Then say that. It’s a simple enough distinction to make.

And your attempt to set yourself up as being somehow opposed to me in your outlook on what causes abuse is strange. You know nothing at all about my understanding of it, nor my opinion on that.

Absolutely not true. Many, many people with deeply abusive backgrounds do not go on to perpetuate abusive patterns. That is a deeply offensive thing to say."

That really wasn't what I was saying. The point I was making is that you don't become abusive unless you have an abusive background. I'm explaining the question put by the OP, which is why do people abuse. If you're determined to examine every word of that and take offence, rather than understanding the plain meaning, go ahead, and continue to believe that people just abuse because of original sin, or whatever. I'll continue to believe that behaviour is the result of nurture.

Ted Bundy courtesy of Wikipedia.

"In some interviews, Bundy spoke warmly of his grandparents and told Rule that he "identified with", "respected", and "clung to" his grandfather. In 1987, he and other family members told attorneys that Samuel Cowell was a tyrannical bully and a bigot who hated blacks, Italians, Catholics, and Jews. Bundy's grandfather beat his wife and the family dog and swung neighborhood cats by their tails. He once threw Louise's younger sister Julia down a flight of stairs for oversleeping. He sometimes spoke aloud to unseen presences,and at least once he flew into a violent rage when the question of Ted's paternity was raised."

That is not true. Many, many people come from abusive backgrounds and do not then automatically abuse others"

They don't come from solely abusive backgrounds though. Empathy is learnt. You will find that they had one person at least who showed them kindness and empathy.

When you hear of someone who has been brought up in a perfectly loving home who suddenly becomes violent, you're not being told the truth about the home, basically. Violence is also learnt and it's very frequently hidden if it's domestic violence. Look at the recent case in the USA of the 13 imprisoned children, in a supposedly close knit community.

I agree GuardianLions, physical violence is more often carried out by males. I don't think men are innately violent though, I think it's cultural.

Testosterone is often assumed to be associated with violence, in both men and women, but there was some interesting psychological research a while back that showed it's actually associated with status seeking behaviour, not violence per se. Worth taking a look at

blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/testosterone-bumps-up-status-seeking-behavior-not-aggressive-risk-taking/

More importantly, though, it didn't even have to be actual testosterone.

"Indeed, the cultural concept of testosterone itself might be to blame for some antisocial and aggressive behavior. The researchers found that of those who strongly believed they had gotten the testosterone pill—whether or not they had it or the placebo—actually "behaved much more unfairly," the authors wrote. "

So my view is that if you're a male whose only way of seeking status is to be violent, you'll be violent. If you have other - more socially beneficial - ways of seeking status in your life, you won't be.

And there are arseholes like Ted Bundy who were the apple of their mother's eye - who do the worst possible thing.

So many many people make damn sure their kids don't suffer like they did.

I am really struggling with this at the moment too. My ds is nearly two and he’s the kindest, most loving, beautiful little boy and I’m so scared that he will grow up to be a man like the rest of them. Surely all the ment by hurt people had mothers that loved them and wanted them to grow up good? So how do they go from lovely little toddlers to men who rape/hurt? Ds is growing up in a stable home with parents that love him but I worry he’ll grow up to be part of the culture where rape jokes are funny and viewing women as objects is the done thing.

Absolutely not true. Many, many people with deeply abusive backgrounds do not go on to perpetuate abusive patterns. That is a deeply offensive thing to say.

For people from abusive backgrounds, the idea that you can live without abusing people is incomprehensible - it's the only way they know how to survive psychologically or relate to people.

That is not true. Many, many people come from abusive backgrounds and do not then automatically abuse others

You are wrong in saying all the people like that are men.

But the vast majority are. And I find it so depressing. I have a wonderful DH and DS but I am coming to hate being around other men. My anxiety is peaking at the moment so I may not be at my most rational.

Eggson I am really sorry about the abuse you suffered. I recognise that it is as real and painful as any abuse commited by a man.

There's no denying it - men are responsible for the overwhelming majority of violent and sexual crimes and there is a definite 'male stamp' to what they do.

Yes women can be arseholes too, but that doesn't take away from the clear pattern of male perpetration.

Dunno - I've certainly come across abusive women. It's less likely to be physical abuse, but psychological abuse can be very destructive. And many are alcoholics etc.

As to why people abuse others - well they're usually from abusive backgrounds themselves. Maybe violence is societally more acceptable in men, but I'll never believe it's innate to men, any more than it's innate to women. I think men just get more opportunity to be violent, and it's more accepted. In fact it's often expected and praised. That's down to societal structures.

If we start saying men are essentially violent, then in my view we're saying that biology is destiny, and I don't believe that, for one minute.

By the way, the reason people usually don't report stuff to police and social services, is that they fear ending up on the receiving end of abuse themselves. I speak from personal experience, and the person I got the abuse from was the female 'victim' not the male perp. He was violent, but he also backed off the minute he thought the police might become involved. Like you, this wasn't a situation I got involved in by choice, but by proximity - in my case geographical. And you then find that in a lot of cases social services are absolutely useless the police were better IME, but they've improved in leaps and bounds recently in terms of dealing with domestic violence.

For some people, abusive behaviour is normal. It's all they've ever known, and they don't understand other ways of relating. For someone who didn't have that experience as a child, who was brought up to have empathy, it is incomprehensible. For people from abusive backgrounds, the idea that you can live without abusing people is incomprehensible - it's the only way they know how to survive psychologically or relate to people.

My honest advice to you is that it sounds like you're suffering from a sort of post traumatic stress, as we all would do if someone we know died so horribly - it's a very dark situation you've been dragged into. Try to distract yourself with nice stuff, long walks, art galleries, whatever you enjoy, get some support for you.

My view FWIW - you need to actually distance yourself psychologically from this if you can, you can't help this woman now, and you will drive yourself into mental illness if you continue to try to understand it. As I said before, I'm speaking from personal experience.

It's the old 'put the oxygen mask over your own face first' advice and it's true. You can't help anyone while you're not strong and healthy yourself.

I reply 'you're right, but all the people like that are men.
You're so fucking wrong here.