Why DO people 'believe' transwomen are women?

But equally we can't be too pissed off that transpeople aren't suitably persecuted and haven't "tried hard enough".

Eh?

No, not at all Bertrand, and all those examples are undeniably problematic. But equally we can't be too pissed off that transpeople aren't suitably persecuted and haven't "tried hard enough".

The person AngryAttackKittens referring to is Lila Perry.

Who insisted they were a girl, like all the other girls and that it was Transphobic to say otherwise. That's the girls' objections were wrong.

These two photographs show Lila during an interview where she said the girls were bigoted for not wanting her in their locker room whilst they were naked. And one subsequently.

And also not mind that the second wave feminists who fought for those changes are routinely denigrated by trans people and their allies.

“Oh sorry, I just meant they haven't had to fight as hard as women did for certain recognitions and accommodations because women put in a lot of legwork in the past to make society more open to these things.”

So somehow feminists should be pleased that, for example, transwomen can now compete, and invariably win in women’s sport, that they can take places in programmers specifically designed to redress the historical bias against women in many areas of public life, that we will soon not be able to assess crime data by the sex of the offender, and women will no longer be able to request that intimate examinations and care not be carried out by a male bodied person. These things should be hailed as a triumph for feminism?

Think of that school where one kid declared himself trans and demanded access to the girls locker room and over 100 girls walked out in protest, risking suspension to do so. It was a small US town, many of them would have been in school with that kid since they were all kindergarten age. This was not a stranger, they knew him. Do we not think that maybe there was a reason they were so alarmed by the idea of having to get undressed in front of him that they were willing to risk punishment by the school to avoid doing so?

Handwaving the concerns of those girls away as bigotry teaches them that their feelings and boundaries don't matter and they shouldn't trust their own instincts. I'm not OK with that.

Cross dressing isn't trans though.

Are you sure about that? I think you'll find all major trans orgs might disagree with you there. Ask Stonewall.

Cross dressing isn't trans though.

Yes it is. This might be where your disconnect is coming from. Transvestitism is officially recognised as transgender, according to Stonewalls own website.

We segregate on the basis of sex, for very good reasons. Segregating the basis of gender does not take any notice of those reasons.

Do you think that we should stop sex segregation altogether?

And that consent doesn't actually matter at all.

YY.

In fact I think this would be a good angle to challenge it. "I don't consent. Respect my consent." We've just had MeToo, FFS don't people see what this is?

Well, cross dressing is the most common paraphilia in sex offenders, so...

Cross dressing isn't trans though.

Well, 50% of trans-identified males currently in prison are sex offenders, so...

And if 50% of child offenders were thieves would that mean I would be as or more likely to be stolen from by a child than an adult?

They must put up or shut up. Head teacher says so.

And, the parents are not to be informed.

We are trying to train girls to ignore their instincts.

And that consent doesn't actually matter at all. Adolescent boy identifies as trans, wants to share communal changing rooms with self-conscious pubescent girls? No consent required. They must put up or shut up. Head teacher says so.

Oh sorry, I just meant they haven't had to fight as hard as women did for certain recognitions and accommodations because women put in a lot of legwork in the past to make society more open to these things. You were saying transpeople haven't been as oppressed and marginalised as one would expect if they were indeed akin to women.

The belief that someone can magically transition to the opposite sex is most harmful to children - and that's where my 'fear' comes from.
TA pressure groups have actively targeted education, 'normalising' the taking of drugs by children below he age of consent to stop puberty, misusing suicide statistics, undermining basic safeguarding principles and laying down definitions of transphobia that silence teenagers and adults from expressing legitimate concerns about any of this.
I am fearful that pressure groups who wish to change society for their own ends (nothing wrong with that, that's what all pressure groups do) have been allowed privileged access to schools and are rewriting policies in defiance of existing equality laws that are doing actual harm to vulnerable children.
That scares me - and it should anyone who opposes unregistered medical experimentation on children.

I mean am I really as likely to be raped by a transwoman's dick as I am by a man's? Really? Or is it the man with the appendage who's more likely to assault me rather than his body part? I doubt anyone has the stats.

Well, 50% of trans-identified males currently in prison are sex offenders, so...

Absolutely agree. We are trying to train girls to ignore their instincts. In the Gift of Fear he shows how that is easily taken advantage of.

“They're standing on the shoulders of giants though Bertrand, those giants being feminists. Should we be embittered by that?”

I don’t understand that.

I mean am I really as likely to be raped by a transwoman's dick as I am by a man's? Really? Or is it the man with the appendage who's more likely to assault me rather than his body part? I doubt anyone has the stats.

Well, cross dressing is the most common paraphilia in sex offenders, so...

It's the combination of self-ID and the idea that it's inappropriate to question someone who may be trans about their gender that raises the biggest red flags in terms of what The Gift of Fear covers. If that becomes the norm then you've created an environment where a woman or girl who has that hair standing up on the back of the neck feeling knows that she's not supposed to say anything about it and may be shamed as a bigot if she does. That's not an acceptable situation to be putting women and girls in.

We define ourselves by our biology because thats the definition of 'woman'.

We need to do that because we are the ones that menstruate and can get pregnant.
Menstruating and being the ones that gestate means we have specific needs.
Those needs include understanding our own fertility, menstruation, and the diseases we are prone to.

To understand the issues, girls and women need to be able to talk about them without being shamed or silenced.

Women and girls shouldn't have to be shaking in terror in order to justify why we don't want to get undressed in front of men. If most women would prefer privacy in spaces where nudity is to be expected then the fact that we prefer that should be enough.

This 100%. This complete disregard for women's feelings while rushing to validate the feelings of males never fails to enrage me. It's really quite stark.

Have any of you who think that women shouldn't be allowed boundaries ever read The Gift of Fear?

Women and girls shouldn't have to be shaking in terror in order to justify why we don't want to get undressed in front of men. If most women would prefer privacy in spaces where nudity is to be expected then the fact that we prefer that should be enough.

Violating women's boundaries is a huge red flag for sexual assault and abuse. How are women and girls supposed to tell who is going to harm them?

Are the 'lady boys' of Thailand considered to be the same as uk type male trans people?

No they're not. The huge number of ladyboys is partly driven by the sex industry in Thailand.

Also they don't think they're women. The idea of them being women would be ludicrous. The ladyboys may look like women but they know they're effeminate men and they act like men in terms of the freedoms they enjoy. To really act like a woman in Thai society would be to live a much less free life. Funnily enough Thai TIMs are not campaigning for that or stamping their feet demanding they are accepted as women.

Transgender is a cultural phenomenon hugely influenced by the social context.