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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why DO people 'believe' transwomen are women?

413 replies

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 26/01/2018 12:36

Actually why?

Because the act of 'believing' without evidence or logic is cult like ideology to me.

The repetition of 'transwomen ARE women' on twitter, facebook etc is like a mantra of a cult. Like repeating the rosary or something, and the more that it repeated, the more people double down in their thinking.

I really feel bewildered half the time now.

It feels like a cult

Like a cult or religion, I guess people are free to believe what they want.

But we are not forced to believe other people's religious beliefs; why are we being forced to believe that 'transwomen are women' and 'transmen are men', when there is no objective, material truth in that statement

It's the new Reformation, but logical thinkers, not Catholics, are being hounded out and targetted.

It's mind blowing

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AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 27/01/2018 11:10

There is clearly something wrong with your attitude to women if you think 100 girls don't have a right to not be naked with a male teenager against their will. The same male who was walking about with a stiffy clearly showing under her miniskirt.

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blackberryfairy · 27/01/2018 11:08

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BertrandRussell · 27/01/2018 11:08

Nobody will ever address these issues. On Mumsnet there are two responses when the are raised. Either "You're all vile transphobes-I just can't bear to stay on the thread with you" or "Sorry, I'd love to stay and chat but I've got a cake to ice"

LangCleg · 27/01/2018 11:07

What I do know is that hundreds of school kids wanted segregated drinking fountains along racial lines back in the day, but they were wrong.

Don't jump on this?! DON'T JUMP ON THIS?! This is so offensive, I don't know where to start.

How dare you conflate racial segregation (oppression of an oppressed group) with sex segregation (protection of an oppressed group).

RatRolyPoly · 27/01/2018 11:07

I'm happy to try and discuss them but really they're not mine to address (but I will, I'm a busybody) but right now I have a sports event to participate in!

blackberryfairy · 27/01/2018 11:06

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RatRolyPoly · 27/01/2018 11:05

Stop it Assigned, there's nothing wrong with my attitude towards women. I'm just having the discussion.

HairyBallTheorem · 27/01/2018 11:05

I am not prepared to accept that it is ever reasonable to place a girl in a position where she has to make a choice between getting naked in front of a person with a penis when she does not want to expose her body in front of that person and having the right to an education.

That's about as stark an example of the insanity as you can get: Women, strip in full view of this person or we won't allow you to graduate from high school.

BertrandRussell · 27/01/2018 11:05

Right. So you acknowledge that these are serious problems that need to be addressed, but aren't interested in addressing them. And don't worry, I'm sure it'll all be fine.

RatRolyPoly · 27/01/2018 11:04

So are you genuinely saying that girls are being unreasonable if they do not want to change in front of a male bodied person?

Nope, haven't made my mind up on that, just throwing ideas around. Gotta run now though.

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 27/01/2018 11:03

"but you have to look at whether those 100 girls were being reasonable"

Fuck sake. This pretty much sums up your attitude to women

Anyone got that lovely pic of Lila Perry showing off her lady assets under her skirt?

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RatRolyPoly · 27/01/2018 11:03

Dunno Bertrand, might put solving them on my to-do list after I've sorted the kids and done the laundry ;)

BertrandRussell · 27/01/2018 11:02

So are you genuinely saying that girls are being unreasonable if they do not want to change in front of a male bodied person?

LangCleg · 27/01/2018 11:00

Cross dressing isn't trans though.

Oh yes it is. The whole bloody point of the self-ID claim is that one shouldn't need to be dysphoric to change gender officially. The whole bloody point of opposing self-ID is to stop the trans juggernaut including cross dressers into trans and into women's spaces and protections legally.

Do catch up.

RatRolyPoly · 27/01/2018 11:00

Explain to me why Lila's wishes are more important then those of the girls.

I don't know anything about this case but you have to look at whether those 100 girls were being reasonable. What I do know is that hundreds of school kids wanted segregated drinking fountains along racial lines back in the day, but they were wrong. Please don't jump on this as a direct comparison, I'm just stating it's in my frame of reference when looking at these things. The majority in a situation aren't always reasonable or correct. However they will always believe they are.

BertrandRussell · 27/01/2018 11:00

"I'd like to move to an entirely gender neutral society"
Why?

AngryAttackKittens · 27/01/2018 10:56

Let's go back to the Lila Perry case. One trans girl who wants access to the girls locker rooms versus over 100 female classmates who don't want that and felt strongly enough about it to risk suspension. Explain to me why Lila's wishes are more important then those of the girls.

Elsie2791 · 27/01/2018 10:56

Here's my view, which is similar to what strawberriesaregood said.

Transwomen, obviously, aren't female at birth. But assuming that a transwoman 'passes' socially as a female post transition then they will be treated exactly the same as any other woman. Yes they've had different experiences prior to their transition, but for social purposes they are women. Transwomen who don't pass will get a lot of abuse and often (wrongly) be assumed to be gay men.

I used to have very short hair and it was amazing how often I got called 'sir' as a result (though it was usually from the back). I'm short with obviously female body fat distribution, and pretty feminine features but my hair plus jeans and trainers was enough to get me 'read' as a man. Now I don't have very short hair and it never happens. I don't get all the homophobic abuse I used to either.

I'm gender critical as well, but that means for me that I believe gender is a)entirely a social construct and as a result b)apart from the obvious biological differences, females and males are not in any way fundamentally different. We're all human being basically.

I'd like to move to an entirely gender neutral society, but that has to mean a society that isn't separated on sex as well as currently the gender you are assigned socially as depends on whether you're seen as male or female. It isn't dependent on whether you actually ARE male or female, because most of us don't walk the streets with our genitals showing, and you can't read someone's chromosomes by looking at them.

The problem is at the moment we've got a lot of institutions in society that are separated on sex. There may be some justification in terms of prisons and hospital wards - I'm not so gender critical that I don't see there can be pragmatic reasons for segregation on grounds of sex, but why not have unisex loos? It would make taking young children of the opposite sex to you to the loo a lot easier. I can think of a few cases when young boys have been raped by men in male loos. Mothers of sons and dads of daughters are currently faced with sending their child into a loo on their own after a certain age, which personally I find hugely anxiety making, unless you misuse the disabled loo.

Why does the labour party even have all women shortlists? If they want to encourage more women to become MPs there are other ways of doing it. Starting by looking at why women may not be coming forward, and how local parties are choosing candidates. If they dropped the shortlists and women's sections the issue would probably go away because there was nothing to argue about. I'm not a Tory but given they've had two female leaders and PMs, they seem to be doing better than labour without all the hoo ha. Labour's misogyny is a big problem but it goes further than trans issues - look at Corbyn's stance on Iran.

I've known a number of post transition trans women and I did see them as women, I certainly didn't view them as men. I can see problems with self definition, but they're related to single sex facilities. But I think at the moment the debate has become so heated that neither side is being particularly rational to be honest.

There IS a big issue of transitioning teenage girls it seems, and that is a concern, but again my concern there would be actual medical treatment. If a daughter of mine wanted to present as male and call herself a different name, it wouldn't bother me in the slightest. I'd be concerned about hormones and so on, but that's why we need to be clear that gender and sex are entirely separate things. At the moment we're equating presenting socially as men or women with actually being male or female. What is the problem with social transition?

This will probably all be a stretch for large swathes of society, but if you consider yourself a gender critical feminist, then in my view you do need to think about what that means. And it means being very clear about the divide between gender (social construct) and sex (biology).

I agree there are problems with the proposed changes to the GRA, but from what I've read, now Justine Greening has gone the tories are likely to quietly drop it because it was Greening's idea. They've seen how unpopular it is with the media who influence the population at large (very few people take notice of the Guardian, and they're never going to vote Tory anyway) and their position is so fragile, they can't afford to piss the media off. That's why May keeps condemning every single thing the media gets upset about.

Ereshkigal · 27/01/2018 10:55

So far I'm imagining the response to the point about cross dressers to be "well of course Stonewall mean the nice ones, the ones just trying to live their lives! They don't mean sex offenders!"

BertrandRussell · 27/01/2018 10:47

“No, not at all Bertrand, and all those examples are undeniably problematic”

Out of interest, how do you think the problems in the examples I give should be sorted out? And do you think they should be sorted out “before” self identification becomes law, rather than after?

BertrandRussell · 27/01/2018 10:46

I was just expressing my surprise that a persecuted and marginalized minority can also have such extraordinary political power.

RatRolyPoly · 27/01/2018 10:44

Referring not quoting I should say.

RatRolyPoly · 27/01/2018 10:43

Datun i'm referring back to something Bertrand said. Perhaps I misunderstood her post in the first instance.

BertrandRussell · 27/01/2018 10:43

And that there are still plenty of feminist battles to be fought.

I wish TRA would apply their mysterious powers to the fight for equal pay, or against the trafficking and exploitation of their sisters in prostitution and pornography, or to eliminate FGM. It’d all be sorted out by tomorrow lunchtime if they did.

Onecutefox · 27/01/2018 10:43

I remember many years ago someone showed me a girl who I thought was a boy. She looked like a boy and she didn't dress as girl. I also heard she felt more like a boy inside. For some reason I am completely fine with it but men or women who clearly look their gender but want to be the opposite just make me feel a bit creapy. It's like fashion now and not a necessity.