Why DO people 'believe' transwomen are women?

I understand why people say toilets are a distraction.

For me it's not.

Because it is the arena in which most women are going to encounter this lack of boundaries.

Most women are not going to experience prison. Smear tests once every few years. I understand wards, of course. But again it's not a weekly occurrence.

Public toilets are. You use them numerous times.

And yes, floor-to-ceiling individual cubicles would solve the problem.

But firstly transactivists aren't interested in solving the problem.

And secondly, we shouldn't have to solve the problem. There isn't a problem.

Transactivists are making it so.

For the purposes of argument, though I understand why it gets shelved. Because many women might feel fine with the toilet issue, but then don't extend that to any other female space.

Two, women should not have to be under threat of rape to be allowed to say no.

Precisely. No is a complete sentence. It would be very interesting to see the results of a blind poll of women's attitudes towards sex segregated spaces, and even more interesting to see if the people currently pushing for trans women to have access to those spaces would pay the slightest bit of attention to it.

Awesome, then you'll understand why I ignore any further trivial issues that you choose to raise from now on.

Feel free to do so.

I'm a father. Once my daughter could visit a loo herself, I would wait outside the ladies until she was done. If there was ever any concern over the length of time, I could always ask a woman to check, and they never refused. I never had concern about her safety other than any mishaps in the loo. I wouldn't have that confidence with a male loo if I was a woman sending in her young son.
I'm not trans so have to imagine the psyche... but if I had a penis, and felt female, sure I would understand the difficulties my penis presented, and would spare them having to deal with it?

In typing this though, if I had a severe body injury, should I hide it due to others sensitivities? Is that how a transwoman sees their penis - as something that that their body just happens to have as a woman, and therefore why should it be hidden?
I don't know the answer, if indeed there is a common one, but curious as to their views.

Using a mobile to type so please forgive the odd error!

Yes. And then they can say that “TERFS” are obsessed by loos."

a)when did I use the word 'TEFF'.
b)I'm not the person who either raised, or keeps raising the issues of toilets. I'm responding to other's responses.

I am making, and will continue to make the point that entrenched positions, and kneejerk responses to things people haven't even said (for example being told my 'racial' point was disgusting when I hadn't made a racial point) make an argument appear irrational.

"And women in general don't want male people in public bathrooms with them. Not sure what part of that you're not understanding."

Since I've never seen one woman, ever, object to a male attendant in a public toilet, no I don't understand it. Nor do I believe it's true.

As I say, it's not me who keeps talking about toilets.

With respect, the point I'm making is that if you allow yourself to get dragged into trivial issues like this, it detracts from the important issues.

Awesome, then you'll understand why I ignore any further trivial issues that you choose to raise from now on.

I suspect that people keep directing the argument back to toilets because that argument is easier to justify (whether to themselves or others) than changing rooms, or prisons, or shelters. It's an attempt to minimize the potential issues and frame trans women's access to women's spaces in the way the public is least likely to push back against."

I don't keep directing the argument back to toilets. I've talked about changing rooms, prisons and shelters, and agreed they should be single sex. Others keep arguing about toilets. I just said I think gender neutral toilets are a good idea. Then people keep saying, that they're unsafe.

With respect, the point I'm making is that if you allow yourself to get dragged into trivial issues like this, it detracts from the important issues.

“I suspect that people keep directing the argument back to toilets because that argument is easier to justify”

Yes. And then they can say that “TERFS” are obsessed by loos.

Loos are the easiest problem to solve- it just needs to have money thrown at it.

And women in general don't want male people in public bathrooms with them. Not sure what part of that you're not understanding.

"Women and girls shouldn't have to be shaking in terror in order to justify why we don't want to get undressed in front of men. If most women would prefer privacy in spaces where nudity is to be expected then the fact that we prefer that should be enough."

Absolutely. But this is why 'transwomen aren't women' is a massive red herring. It isn't the key issue in any way, shape or form. The issue is women's autonomy.

I suspect that people keep directing the argument back to toilets because that argument is easier to justify (whether to themselves or others) than changing rooms, or prisons, or shelters. It's an attempt to minimize the potential issues and frame trans women's access to women's spaces in the way the public is least likely to push back against.

Yeah, definitely, if toilets are already unsafe then why not make them even more so?"

How is it making them more unsafe to make them unisex? As I said the problem isn't who is allowed into the toilets, It's who is there to stop anything bad happening.

Sorry, I really don't get the argument here. Women are rarely raped and murdered in crowded high streets in broad daylight, at least in the UK.

If there is someone else there to challenge the man going into the toilet, and to stop them going in or doing anything bad when you're in there, then you're safe anyway. If there isn't, you're unsafe anyway. If a bad man comes into a toilet intending to attack a woman, wouldn't it help to have some good men there to tackle him? Assuming we don't believe all men are rapists?

The more people in toilets, the safer they are, which is why women rarely get raped and murdered in crowded high streets. And what about people who are out with children of the opposite sex?

Women and girls shouldn't have to be shaking in terror in order to justify why we don't want to get undressed in front of men. If most women would prefer privacy in spaces where nudity is to be expected then the fact that we prefer that should be enough.

Indeed. I am kind of uncomfortable in these kind of discussions when the 'they are not going to rape you' kind of thing comes up. One, they are no less dangerous statistically than any other man. Two, women should not have to be under threat of rape to be allowed to say no.

Toilets is just microcosm of the bigger issue. And it does have different circumstances attached to it.

One of the main ones is the initial demand for access.

Access to women's spaces should never be framed, or granted as a result of a demand.

The very act of insistence undermines the credibility of the person insisting.

Because men who are aware of the discomfort that it will cause women, won't ask. Therefore you are left with men who don't care. Red flag, immediately.

But even without that, we are seeing example after example of men who are actually making a point of making women feel uncomfortable.

Dominating the narrative, insisting on terms, reasserting the power dynamic and disguising it as virtue.

"I don't really get the why toilets are such a big issue I'm afraid."

So why are a subset if men so keen to stay out of the men's and use the women's toilets? Why don't mit lead by example and show us how truly safe it is to have 'mixed gendered' loos, by staying out of the women's and using the men's.

And, if I may add, much as I like Miranda, much as I respect him, and appreciate his fighting on the side of women? I still wouldn't undress in front of him, or accept him as my cervical smear nurse (were he qualified). Because we are not the same sex. And being an all round lovely person does not override that. My criteria for who I share sex segregated spaces with isn't 'lovely person'. It's biological sex.

YY. Luckily Miranda isn't a self centred misogynist who would expect us to put his validation over our comfort and feelings. Unlike in the recent TIM cervical smear nurse incident.

A young girl might not be at physical risk from a young boy identifying as female, but they may end up being passive stimulation for those seeking a thrill.
Perhaps toilets aren't the best location to discuss... showers are a more obvious one.
Granting someone with a penis access to those with vulvas just feels like leaving the sheep pen open to a gender confused wolf.

"If we allowed for differing versions of womanhood, then when Paris Lees talked about enjoying being catcalled , she wouldn't have alienated so many women. My blood boils when I think of these attitudes being ascribed to women, (me!!) but when I think about how I might feel if I was a trans woman, I can have empathy for her."

It would annoy me if anyone, trans woman or not, said they enjoy being catcalled. And it's not only trans woman who would say that unfortuanately. Whenever this debate crops up, you nearly always get one of the usual suspects saying 'well I can't see what all the fuss is about, I think it's a compliment'.

Paris Lees is just wrong, and I don't think being trans either excuses or explains that. She said "No one should accept harassment; harassment, by its very nature, is unacceptable. But is catcalling always harassment?"

Well unless the catcaller has asked the catcallee's permission beforehand and received, yes it is. The point is it's shouting at someone on the street you don't know.

And not even just for safety! My dad is a lovely person who would never, ever hurt me. I still don't want to get changed with him when we're going to the swimming pool.

YY. I shouldn't be, but am constantly shocked by how many people think my personal boundaries and feelings and comfort as a woman don't fucking matter. While bending over backwards to centre male feelings.

Yeah, definitely, if toilets are already unsafe then why not make them even more so?

(Can we have a banging head on keyboard emoticon? It would come in handy.)

Nope, haven't made my mind up on that, just throwing ideas around. Gotta run now though.

Haha I bet you have. We see you. Have a little think about why you think women's feelings don't count but men's do, while you're doing your laundry, eh?

For me personally, toilets are not a big issue. But at the moment, if a dodgy bloke walks into a public toilet you can yell really loudly "get out of here right now you fucking perve" in the hope that someone within earshot might come to your rescue. If self-ID comes in, you'll have that awful couple of seconds of self-doubt during which he can cross the room and grab you.

And in any case, there are other issues. Upskirting is an increasing issue - how hard is it for a bloke to shove a camera phone live-streaming on periscope under the side of a cubicle? What about women who want to wash a mooncup in the sink? What about Muslim women who want to adjust their headscarf? What about the poor bloody women in the President's Club debacle recently who just wanted an all-female space they could escape to for a few (timed) moments?

Pointing to existing abuses doesn't mean that it's all right to open the system up to even more abuses on an even greater scale.

Men statistically and overwhelmingly carry out sexual offences.
You can keep female toilets for females and accept the minuscule risk of a female offender.
If you open those doors to trans, you now increase the risk simply because you're inviting the massively increased percentage of trans with a varying degree of 'maleness'. And part of that maleness is the increased tendency to sexually offend.

Everybody (I hope) accepts that the overwhelming majority of trans are not going to be sexual offenders, but their minority element is still a minority that women need protection from.

I'm afraid being born a male isn't the only burden transwomen have to bear. They will just have to bear the statistical evidence that suggests at absolute best, there would be no increase in offenders entering toilets and at worst an increase.

"Yes, I fear that as a matter of long term strategy if we lose this one and go down the Canada route, the only option left to us will be "equalism". We'll have to fight for public toilets with individual floor-to-ceiling doors opening onto public spaces, for instance on the grounds of public (non sex/gender specific) safety"

Can I point out something a bit obvious here?

I remember a case when a woman was murdered in a public toilet, as well as the cases I've already mentioned of boys being raped in public toilets. I've heard of women being raped in train toilets. Just making a facility single sex doesn't make it safe. If you're alone in a toilet and a rapist/murderer comes in, simply saying 'you're a man, you shouldn't be in here' won't stop them. What makes you safe is the presence of other people.

I've occasionally been in public toilets and felt a bit unsafe because they were isolated/dark/it was late at night. Particularly on stations. Unless a toilet has an attendant to police it, or CCTV or something, you're in danger anyway. So I think the scenario you describe would be a good idea in my view.

Sorry, but toilet cubicles are private anyway. I've been in toilets with male attendants cleaning and not bothered. I've been in mens toilets when the women's toilets were broken in a (gay) bar - I needed a wee, and for me that takes precedence. I've been in numerous (gay) bars where drag queens come into the women's loos and not been bothered in the slightest.

I don't really get the why toilets are such a big issue I'm afraid. Urinals need to be a in separate area for those bothered by that. But otherwise, single sex toilets don't really make women safer in any practical way I can think of.

'Trans women are women' is hugely transphobic to my mind. It absolutely denies the trans in the person and attempts to eradicate this hugely important aspect of the type of woman- or man-hood that the trans individual has experienced. And these experiences clearly are massively important, as evidenced by the ways that they are referenced by prominent transgender people.

If we allowed for differing versions of womanhood, then when Paris Lees talked about enjoying being catcalled , she wouldn't have alienated so many women. My blood boils when I think of these attitudes being ascribed to women, (me!!) but when I think about how I might feel if I was a trans woman, I can have empathy for her. Same sort of thing with political representation - transgender people need proper political representation but their issues are not analogous to women born women, so political representation as women will mean that issues such as access to specialised medical services become part of what is advocated for. We need women's representation and trans women's representation. I think this would allow a more rounded critique of toxic masculinity and patriachy, whereas for me insisting trans women are women is conforming to patriarchal standards because it denies women born women an identity in themselves, and insists that patriarchal womanhood is something we all have identified into with our fluffy punk brains.