Why DO people 'believe' transwomen are women?

Sorry, but when you descend to 'oppressing women in the name of religion is ok, because it helps me win my argument about toilets', you're handing ammunition to...

No one said that

No one has said oppressing women is A OK

What people are saying is why make going out for the day virtually impossible for SOME women with these religious views

Sorry, but when you descend to 'oppressing women in the name of religion is ok, because it helps me win my argument about toilets', you're handing ammunition to those you regard as your enemies. Which seems to be almost everyone TBH.

Unisex toilets are the answer to everything, apparently. Cancer? Climate change? Just have everyone pee together and the world will be saved.

(This seriously is the weirdest obsession I've run across in a commenter in a while. Takes all sorts, I suppose.)

Religion is a protected characteristic

So you think Christian bakers should be able to refuse to make cakes for gay weddings then?

Sexual orientation is also a protected characteristic.

I guess Muslim women can just hold it in until after the revolution, huh?"

I think this muslim woman would like to have a word with you.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/mar/20/muslim-woman-veil-hijab

"As a practising (though flawed) Shia Muslim, I watch the new puritans with apprehension. So too other Muslims worldwide, the silent many, watch and tremble. From the eighth to the early 20th century, Muslims strove for a broad education (as commanded in the Qur’an), questioned doctrines, and were passionate about scientific advancements, political and social ideals and art. Not even humiliating colonial rule deterred them from the march forward. Now the marchers are walking backwards. The hijab, jilbab, burqa and niqab are visible signs of this retreat from progressive values."

"Trans rights sound more like a white male supremacy movement with every comment"

Well a)I'm not an advocate for trans rights and b)if you don't think a religion that says a woman can't remove her headscarf in the presence of a man is problematic, can I recommend the Handmaid's Tale as a good read/watch?

Link

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-28713123

*This is something that should absolutely be addressed. Along with cottaging.

CCTV in men's toilets, maybe? *

I'm not sure how common cottaging is these days (after all we have Grindr now), but as long as they're consenting adults, I don't care what gay men do. But if you do want to stop it, (I can see it might be a problem for other toilet users, [particularly if they're in a cubicle for ages, we've all been in THAT queue in a nightclub) again unisex secure toilets is the way to go.

CCTV is all over shops and shopping centres, didn't stop these boys being attacked horribly. You can't CCTV someone on the toilet.

I guess Muslim women can just hold it in until after the revolution, huh?

Religion is a protected characteristic.

Trans rights sound more like a white male supremacy movement with every comment.

And what rufus said

“Absolutely, have you noticed how accessible toilets are usually unisex?”

Yes. They are single occupancy cubicles with sinks, floor to ceiling doors and no common areas.

hey frequently have one unisex loo these days

Oh dont be silly

Trans men in men's shelters and prisons I mean. Nope, never, incredibly unsafe.

Toilets are fundamental to being able to participate in society. Ask anyone in a wheelchair if they are merely a distraction."

Absolutely, have you noticed how accessible toilets are usually unisex?

And the same for changing rooms, etc. Prisons - special wing for trans women in men's prison or purpose built prison just for them if there are enough people to justify that. Shelters - no trans women in women's shelters ever, some shelters were handling by giving vouchers for residential hotels so the person would have their own room, which is better than what most people end up with. Trans women in men's shelters or prisons - no, not ever, that would be completely insane and everyone knows it, which is why it's not being pushed for.

Elsie2791

First link doesn't work.

The second link demonstrates violence in men's toilets.

This is something that should absolutely be addressed. Along with cottaging.

CCTV in men's toilets, maybe?

The answer is not to allow those violent men into female toilets. Thereby making them each as unsafe as each other.

Addressing male violence, whether it is in a toilet or elsewhere, is an entirely separate issue. And one that I and most women are fully behind.

Can I ask what he has read or watched to lead him to his belief?

Toilets are not a distraction if your religion or culture wont let you remove and adjust your headscarf in front of a man. Or use it at all if a man is in there.

In that case, I'd say you've got far far bigger problems than where to pee quite frankly. Have you ever been in a cafe? They frequently have one unisex loo these days.

And you certainly shouldn't go to France.

www.tripsavvy.com/how-to-use-toilets-in-france-1517966

I really can't believe that religious oppression of women is being used to score points in this argument.

I will have a bash at answering this but these are not my views but those of my DH. To be honest we have stopped talking about trans because it causes us huge arguments so we both turn a blind eye to each other's opinions.

My DH thinks that the mind and the body are intricately linked and that hormones are on a spectrum. So one might have male genitalia but one's hormones might be on the extreme (very low testosterone etc). And the hormones play a role in perception. So not quite lady brain in the structural lady brains are different way, but the brain perceives things in a way that leads people to wish to be trans.

I think.

The solution to the toilet issue is single occupancy gender neutral toilets, one in each location that also has men's and women's toilets. Trans people don't like that solution because it doesn't validate their sense of their own gender, but it's still the best compromise available. Everyone is safe, everyone has privacy, nobody is left without the ability to use the toilet when they need to.

“Getting naked with trans is the moment of truth“

Yes- but there are plenty of people who wouldn’t mind and say so. It’s easy to make people look bigoted for objecting. That’s why it gets so much attention. I reckon people who really want to look at the issues would be better focussing on sport as a headline concern.

Toilets are not a distraction if your religion or culture wont let you remove and adjust your headscarf in front of a man. Or use it at all if a man is in there.

Toilets are fundamental to being able to participate in society. Ask anyone in a wheelchair if they are merely a distraction.

I'm a father. Once my daughter could visit a loo herself, I would wait outside the ladies until she was done. If there was ever any concern over the length of time, I could always ask a woman to check, and they never refused. I never had concern about her safety other than any mishaps in the loo. I wouldn't have that confidence with a male loo if I was a woman sending in her young son."

Exactly, but that's why unisex loos are a good idea. Because women do have sons. And what if you had been sending your daughter into a public toilet when there wasn't a friendly looking woman about to ask? Would you still feel so confident? If the public toilet was relatively deserted how do you know someone dodgy hadn't already gone in there?

www.bbc.co.uk/newchester-28713123

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/08/21/rape-arndale-centre-14-year-old-boy-manchester-city-centre-shopping-centre_n_1817331.html

Two different incidents of boys being raped in toilets in one city.

Also there's the Overton window issue. If we concede that trans women in toilets is fine, then why not changing rooms? Either sex segregated spaces are segregated by sex or they're not. Having some spaces segregated by sex and others by "gender" won't work.

Agree the loo thing is a distraction. I think it ends up as an illustration along with changing areas etc because that's when the hard divide between male and female happens. We eat, drink, work together etc, but this is the point at which we really decide if you're in or out. The rest feels like playing at acceptance. Getting naked with trans is the moment of truth.