Why DO people 'believe' transwomen are women?

Maybe because when people think of transwomen, they think of a person who was formerly a man, but has now had their bits chopped off (or at least in the process of) and wears womens clothing and identifies as a woman. Imo, if they choose to get their penis removed then they free to call themselves women, come and join the club. If however they want to keep their penis, then they are and always will be a man afaic.

People are scared about offending and there is huge wave of good movement towards equality in race, gender, sexuality etc. But in the midst of that, less certain aspects of humanity get dragged into the mix...
A man who dresses as a woman, or a woman who identifies as a man are examples of where society hasn't quite come to terms with things. We still haven't fully come to terms with race, gender, sexuality et al, but we do seem to have settled on acceptance and to massively reduce former prejudices. With that in mind, if someone identifies as a particular gender, we seem reluctant to challenge it, as 'acceptance' is the order of the day.

Until we discover any hidden gender identifiers, science has to abuse by what it can currently prove, and that means XX or XY.

You could notionally define gender as something more ethereal than biological alone... and argue that science can only detect the biological, not the soul or emotive being. But if you go down that route, an apple might actually be an orange if only we could better measure the immeasurable.

The other weird thing is the insistence that Trans are the most victimised and oppressed group out of everybody ever.

I actually think, the next time I'm challenged on this, I might refer them to the extermination of the Jews in the Holocaust. Or would that be too much & really offensive? Genuine question.

I think we should call men who identify as women 'transmen' as this is what they are - transgender men. In fact I assumed that's what trans men meant till I started reading these threads. I was musing the other day that in 1000s of years if you dug some one up who'd m>f there would be no evidence of that at all, just an xy male skeleton. True fact. What would an autopsy say if they had to post mortem a person who'd had a 'sex change' (I'm going to start ' ' ing too), would they know?

And trying to understand something from a different perspective is not gas lighting if you were referring to me..... it's a necessity if you want a balanced view.

I do think there are transgender people are very genuine- whether it be due to biological or psychological conditions- the feelings they have are real, but it should remain that, a medical condition- with professional involvement, not reduced to a tick box form.
I think the genuine cases have been hijacked by a different type of movement though and I don't think has anything to do with the welfare of transgender people. It obviously has much wider implications.
I feel it should remain a medical condition, and self declaration ruled out.

It's a fashion but I think if we are clever, we can make progress here in terms of rights for young girls sitting exams at difficult points in the menstrual cycle, rights for women to access gynaecologists more rapidly, rights for women experiencing menopause to have suitable environmental conditions to work in, that kind of thing.

They can just fuck off with the pregnant people thing. That's just bonkers. If you are bearing children, you're female, whether you like it or not.

Very interesting posts. I think it's either the thin end of the wedge or a passing trend that will eventually go nowhere. Hopefully the latter. And I think that people are worried about being seen to be uncool with it all instead of being brave enough to openly oppose it. It feels like a powerful lobby out there.

"But ignoring biological difference means we allow in discrimination through the back door. Which is what is happening here."

• this is so true, and the harm that has come from ruling out biology that gender is now trivialised to opt in or out at will.

It has been such a relief to find on these MN boards other people saying what I think (but feel I can't say on eg Twitter).
I am utterly unbothered by transpeople doing their thing - until they start trying to impose their worldview on the rest of us. All this "you must say pregnant people not pregnant women unless that offends transwomen" bollocks is infuriating. Why don't they understand that most women will be friendly and sympathetic if they acknowledge that being born a woman has its challenges too and that many women have lifelong fears of Male violence which mean we're not happy to share spaces where we're physically vulnerable with men? Why won't they understand that children go through phases of thinking they are a cat/unicorn/astronaut & we don't make life changing decisions based on these fads so we shouldn't rush to cater to what could be a temporary whim for a girl who thinks she should be a boy? I don't get how we're apparently the unreasonable ones here.

To add to what Datun said, there is a politics of identity here that potentially oppresses women and we see it in other regards.

For example the campaign for equal postnatal leave for mothers and fathers. They did this with economists recently and found the men roared ahead in career terms as they had an extra window for publication. Women economists did not, because, and this is an important because, they have to recover biologically from giving birth in addition to any parenting duties.

We've collectively played down the need for this because we argue that women are equal to men etc. So we try to look as equal as possible, and make a thing about equal parenting as a means of being inclusive. But ignoring biological difference means we allow in discrimination through the back door. Which is what is happening here.

I think the best account of the "wrong body" view was from a transwoman who posted on here (I paraphrase because it was a while back). Her version was something along the lines of "Look, when I use it, I don't mean it literally. It's a metaphor, the best thing I can come up with to explain my dysphoria, this overwhelming sense of something being wrong, to someone who doesn't share that dysphoria." Unfortunately, it's now been appropriated by trans activists who now insist that language about being born in the wrong body is to be taken absolutely literally, at face value, and given a pseudo scientific underpinning in terms of (highly dubious and cherry picked versions of) neuroscience.

According to a historian friend of mine, a similar thing happened in the history of religion. If you'd asked someone in the Middle Ages, they'd have said large parts of the bible were meant to be understood metaphorically or allegorically. You can actually date when literalism crept into late 19th century American interpretations of the bible, as a direct response to the success and perceived threat of the scientific world view.

It gaslighting. Marking to read later

I'm just trying to try and see it from a different perspective and play devils advocate
I do think there are biological and environmental factors that will affect gender and thus a person may come to recognise themselves as the opposite sex.
I think transwomen are women line is to try and make people feel less fraudulent in their assertion that they were born into the wrong body.

Because people on the Left think that people on the Left must be think this.

( My politics on are the left btw, but a number of recent events have really put me off people on the left).

What? Am I in the right place?

Reiner knew full well something was "not right" and shot himself. Not sure how that is relevant.

@Missymoo100 that ignores the fact that he was raised as a boy until this surgical error happened. His parents knew he was a boy, the doctors knew he was a boy. The experiences he went through were bizarre and no doubt created the awareness that something was different about him. It's not a good example of anything at all, and hardly anyone ever recognises the dreadful abuse that he went through.

“If you ask me for a list of things that make me a woman my body would be last on the list.”

What would be first on the list?

I think a few things are going on with this issue:

1. many people don’t believe it but feel it is kind to go along
2. many people don’t think things through (overlaps with first thing)
3. many people want to be as right-on as possible and rightly abhor the thought of prejudice and here I go back to point 2
4. some trans males presenting as women believe it because they have been socialized as males so believe their rights come first and their beliefs and feelings are more important than women’s beliefs and feelings. And they think being a woman is about appearance, that it’s a performance. Not all TIMs believe this, some are just fine with identifying as trans, but for the ones who do it’s just them prioritizing their feels.

Assassinated- I think people use it as an example to show that there is a biological basis to gender. That gender is not purely down to socialisation.

Is this "personal attack" in the strange new sense of conflating "being personally attacked" with "being asked a reasonable question I can't come up with an answer to"?

if some conditions don't lead to obvious ambiguity of biological sex, such as testosterone exposure in uterus, these people may not be diagnosed as "intersex"

I’m sorry but I don’t know any of those names, and I’ve not seen any trans support threads. All the threads I’ve seen that asked to be trans supportive got taken over and shouted down with a very firm “this is a place for gender critical women who understand the damage transwomen do ONLY.”
I have never ever seen any thread on here with anything along the lines of 'this is a place for gender critical women who understand the damage transwomen do ONLY.' said. Not even vaguely.

Also I have never seen a trans support thread, except for the one created a few days ago. And the only reason it went down like a bag of cold sick was the state of the OP...telling people not to post unless you agree with the OP doesn't tend to go down well anywhere at all...and then the thread progressed even more ridiculously, with the OP just being utterly ridiculous and finally..ended with them actually ignoring trans posters that they were claiming to support

Here on MN you are not allowed to be anything other than 100% against all trans people or you get roundly personally attacked

This is a lie also. Unless by attacked you mean..asked what you think and why. Asking people what they think and why they think that way is not attacking. Whatever else is the point in a discussion forum?