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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why DO people 'believe' transwomen are women?

413 replies

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 26/01/2018 12:36

Actually why?

Because the act of 'believing' without evidence or logic is cult like ideology to me.

The repetition of 'transwomen ARE women' on twitter, facebook etc is like a mantra of a cult. Like repeating the rosary or something, and the more that it repeated, the more people double down in their thinking.

I really feel bewildered half the time now.

It feels like a cult

Like a cult or religion, I guess people are free to believe what they want.

But we are not forced to believe other people's religious beliefs; why are we being forced to believe that 'transwomen are women' and 'transmen are men', when there is no objective, material truth in that statement

It's the new Reformation, but logical thinkers, not Catholics, are being hounded out and targetted.

It's mind blowing

OP posts:
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lizzieoak · 26/01/2018 21:54

Sorry lapdance, should not read in a rush (me I mean).

TheBrilliantMistake · 26/01/2018 21:37

More like 'abuser in transition to jail'

LapdanceShoeshine · 26/01/2018 21:12

Another one from Chicago - this one is “trans-age” - “boy trapped in man’s body”

Hmm

www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-web-sexual-assault-case-denied-bail-20180124-story.html

MyNameIsInigoMantoya · 26/01/2018 20:44

Descartes has to take some of the blame. Transwomen are reliant upon the false idea that the mind and body are distinct entities, otherwise it would be impossible to conceive that someone who has grown up in a man's body could have the mind of a woman.

But that leads us to another misconception - that there is a clearly defined "mind of a woman". This belief is deeply rooted in unscientific gender stereotypes stretching back millenia. For transwomen to be real women, they need both cartesian mind-body duality AND gender stereotyping.

The final misconception is that humans are isolated bubbles who exist largely free of social influence. If there is such a thing as a "mind of a woman" it must not arise as a result of socialisation. If it did, transwomen could not be real women because they're not raised as women from birth.

So, we have two opposing models. One says that women have innately different minds from those of men, but that this is nothing to do with experiencing either the body or socialisation of being a woman. The second says that our minds arise, at least in part, from both our bodies and our socialisation.

It's the second idea that's generally accepted by the scientific community (though there's a lot of debate over whether it is brain / body or socialisation that dominates). However, it's the first that's generally preached by our Anglo-Saxon, neoliberal political philosophy.

Basically, our society teaches a lie: that you can simply choose to be whoever you want to be. It's unscientific, but it's widely accepted. Not surprising as it appease the wishes of many non-trans people too, especially those who wish themselves to be something other than what mainstream society wants them to be. That'll be teenagers rebelling against their upbringing, libertarians railing against Political Correctness and Socialists who are always at war with "the Establishment".

So, why do many people believe transwomen are real women? Because that belief is the inevitable conclusion of a set of values they want to believe are true, even though they're not.

Why do many in the medical community support transition? Because they are not there to judge the beliefs of a person who needs treatment. The current psychiatric philosophy is to make people happy by giving them what they need. It doesn't matter whether or not transwomen actually are women, all that matters is that they have a way of reducing their suffering. Note that the thrust of scientific inquiry is not an attempt to demonstrate that transwomen ARE women, but to find something in their brains that is different from typical men and makes them feel like they should be women. That simple explanation - transwomen have brains that make them feel like women even though they're not - obviously leads to the solution of helping them feel like they actually are women, even though they're not.

But anyway, medics at the chalk face follow accepted best practice, even if that best practice is wrong (read up on cot deaths if you want to see how easily a harmful "best practice" can come into being with no scientific justification).

Well, that's what I think. The reason it feels like we're pushing water uphill is because we're fighting a belief system much bigger than trans ideology. It's the same ideology behind the American Dream, behind modern neoliberal economics, behind the MRA movement, Brexit and Trump. It's Neitzche via Ayn Rand - the will to succeed makes anything possible, is an end in of itself, and will inevitably lead to self-justifying success. And anyone who doesn't have that will to succeed? It's fine to screw them over because they're on the wrong side of history.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 26/01/2018 20:02

No worries lapdance

I had a heated debate with a poster a while back and since i had spent the entire thread agreeing with them i couldnt figure out why they were so annoyed with me Grin

They misread a post, its so easily done

LapdanceShoeshine · 26/01/2018 19:59

Thanks, Rufus Smile

(Though it wasn’t a toilet, was a high school changing room! Adult 18-year-old transwoman not satisfied with separate cubicle near girls’ changing room - was demanding to be in there with them)

UpstartCrow · 26/01/2018 19:56

Sorry lapdance, I didnt understand.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 26/01/2018 19:55

Poor lapdance was trying to ask why a private stall wasnt good enough for the transwoman

Why were they insisting on being in a communual ladies toilet

lizzieoak · 26/01/2018 19:52

Re why a private stall is not enough - because I feel unsafe knowing that a man can come in and no-one outside the toilets will turn a hair. I rely on other women — and men - noticing if a man enters and reporting it. Because often public loos (if near empty) give me the creeps anyway because sitting with your pants around your ankles makes you vulnerable, so I would vastly prefer if self-identifying was not enough to allow men to enter what should be a woman’s safe space. If a man has had medical certification and lived fully as a woman for some time, then talk to me.

LapdanceShoeshine · 26/01/2018 19:45

It’s hard when you’re on the same side & still get knocked back

FFS

LapdanceShoeshine · 26/01/2018 19:44

Yes, in the context of women’s toilets they do

Not in the context of what I posted

UpstartCrow · 26/01/2018 19:41

Its a 'question' commonly asked by MRA's. And my suggested responses stand, thanks anyway.

LapdanceShoeshine · 26/01/2018 19:39

@UpstartCrow the private stall mentioned is in a girls’ changing room in a US high school!

(It helps to read links before commenting...)

LapdanceShoeshine · 26/01/2018 19:37

This blog is a useful one to defend against the “tw are w” argument.

Miranda Yardley gets a nod Smile

“My purpose is NOT to suggest that all trans people are violent criminals, but the ones listed here certainly are.”
“I do not hate transpeople, but I do want them to look at actual information and admit that transwomen are perpetrators of significant crimes as well as victims.”

genderlaw.blogspot.co.uk/2018/01/transwomen-perpetrators-of-violent-and.html?m=1

UpstartCrow · 26/01/2018 19:31

Why isn’t a private stall good enough?
Because if paramedics are called to a woman having a late miscarriage the door will be open.
Because a Muslim woman cant adjust her hijab in one unless it has a mirror.
Because men dont want to see women wash their bloody hands and mooncup in a communal sink.

Because what men think women do in a bathroom - preen in a mirror - is their fantasy, not reality. We want privacy.

LapdanceShoeshine · 26/01/2018 19:21

Here’s one of those demanding ones. Why isn’t a private stall good enough? Nova has since been knocked back, thankfully.
Hooray for Illinois (though, disturbingly, Trump is partly responsible Confused

‘The group D211 Parents for Privacy, which is suing the district and federal government in federal court, has opposed locker room access based on gender identity.
‘“We support providing accommodations to students who request one, but the locker room of the opposite sex is not a reasonable accommodation, nor is it compassionate to their fellow classmates to demand this,” said group spokeswoman Vicki Wilson.’

www.chicagotribune.com/suburbs/ct-met-transgender-locker-room-teen-20171201-story.html

www.chicagotribune.com/suburbs/ct-met-transgender-student-lawsuit-palatine-20180125-story.html

iamawoman · 26/01/2018 19:17

As a relative newbie to this - i feel that what is needed is an accessible viral campaign of sorts to bring the message home to the many women that are not aware of what women could be facing if these changes to the gra that have been proposed go ahead - at the moment at lot of what is spoken about in feminist social media can on face of it appear too manhating / anti trans /rad fem or tied up in gender politics rhetoric which to be honest has my brain in knots. I see that more prominent women and transwomen are speaking out at the madness of self iding but how can we help them garner more public support so they are not so easily hounded out of their jobs by accusations of transphobia?

Missymoo100 · 26/01/2018 19:12

Found this paper, it deals with disorders of sex development but some parts are quite interesting and applicable. Also interesting how intersex people do not desire to bring about changes such as spectrum of gender that some transactivists do because of the harm it will cause.

"Recognising sex as a spectrum will result in chaos. For example, women upliftment programs will face serious setback because of the overlapping definition of females among various shades of sexes. Disrupting the smooth social order of the majority is as equally unethical as neglecting the needs of DSD individuals"

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5593477/

BigDeskBob · 26/01/2018 19:05

"Being given a hard time because you want to adopt a female-type lifestyle on your own terms doesn't really compare for me"

I agree, boffin.

GuardianLions · 26/01/2018 18:44

Apologies - haven't rtft in one chunk so this is just addressing the OP

I remember once sitting at a train station and a bloke who had either had a fight or been badly beaten up was talking to a young female friend he happened to bump into there.

I was horrified and found it hard not to stare - his face was covered in scratches and grazes, several teeth missing, blood on his shirt, bruising and swelling around his eyes. The girl was looking blankly back at him, and I kept overhearing him say "Do I look alright? I feel bad man - do I look alright?" and she would say "yeah you look fine" in a monotone way.

I feel the 'trans women are real women' is a bit like that young man and woman. TIMs know they aren't women, but can't face it, the enablers are like that young woman, who daren't mention it. The reality just seems too horrific to admit.

I think that is why the emotions run so high.

Gender critical people who point it out just seem like extremely unwelcome strangers sticking their noses in - when they NEED this charade just to keep it together.

StoneColdDiva · 26/01/2018 18:34

The guy on twitter who was lecturing women on this and then had to painfully backtrack once he realised that he might have to consider transwomen as sexual partners sums the whole thing up really.

Anybody got the link?

BoffinMum · 26/01/2018 18:32

(Being given a hard time because you want to adopt a female-type lifestyle on your own terms doesn't really compare for me).

BoffinMum · 26/01/2018 18:31

Women have been pretty oppressed.

As Hillary said in her speech, 'Women's rights are human rights':

It is a violation of human rights when babies are denied food, or
drowned, or suffocated, or their spines broken, simply because they are
born girls. '

It is a violation of human rights when women and girls are sold into the
slavery of prostitution.

It is a violation of human rights when women are doused with gasoline,
set on fire and burned to death because their marriage dowries are
deemed too small.

It is a violation of human rights when individual women are raped in
their own communities and when thousands of women are subjected to rape
as a tactic or prize of war.

It is a violation of human rights when a leading cause of death
worldwide among women ages 14 to 44 is the violence they are subjected
to in their own homes.

It is a violation of human rights when young girls are brutalized by the
painful and degrading practice of genital mutilation.

It is a violation of human rights when women are denied the right to
plan their own families, and that includes being forced to have
abortions or being sterilized against their will.

If there is one message that echoes forth from this conference, it is
that human rights are women's rights.... And women's rights are human
rights.

Let us not forget that among those rights are the right to speak freely.
And the right to be heard.

(Full speech here: www.un.org/esa/gopher-data/conf/fwcw/conf/gov/950905175653.txt)

JustHooking · 26/01/2018 18:31

People like a cause now more than ever thanks to social media
No doubt it's fashionable
I am in a FAB group for a parents of children with a specific disorder. A parent said their child had also come out as trans. I warned them to be careful especially of charities such as mermaids
I was jumped on by one woman so I had a look at her FB page
She had been part of Charlie's Army too
Hard of thinking and likes a cause

SchrodingersFrilledLizard · 26/01/2018 18:28

Why DO people 'believe' transwomen are women?

Because they have replaced knowledge of biology with magical thinking.