Why DO people 'believe' transwomen are women?

"Hmm, I'm generally uncomfortable with the tone and content of this whole discussion for reasons I can't express." Could you try? I feel the same-but I have come to the point of thinking that it is because I am a socially liberal "right on" sort of person (for want of a better description) and this is the first time I find myself being thought of/described as on the "wrong" side of values that are important to me. I don't believe I am -but it's still a very uncomfortable place to be.

Rat that's a very interesting stab at answering the question. But it does lead (in my mind at least) to the natural next question: why has this group of people been treated this way, to a greater or lesser degree, across all human societies and at all times in history. What's been driving that? If you're allowed to reference biology, the answer becomes pretty obvious (and so do the reasons for specific women's rights over and above the human rights we all share). But without reference to biology, each instance of the group called "women" finding themselves at the bottom of the pile becomes an accidental, historically and culturally contingent fact... but one which, mysteriously, has repeated itself over and over and over again.

False hypothetical. Biology is how we define what sex people are. We're mammals, not floating brains in jars.

You've tried to frame the question to yield the answer that you're most comfortable with, basically. It's dishonest.

Hmm, I'm generally uncomfortable with the tone and content of this whole discussion for reasons I can't express. But an interesting question has come out of it for me:

If you were obliged to define "women" but we're not allowed to resort to biology, how would you do it?

Given that women can make whatever choices they like and live any lifestyle they choose I would have to define them by what society places on them that is specific to their being women. So greater discrimination and underrepresentation in higher positions in the workplace. Greater scrutiny over appearance and a more sexualised norm of acceptable presentation. More likely to suffer violence and sexual assaults. Generally lower paid, achievements less recognised or celebrated etc.

Thinking about it if you defined "men" in similar terms, trans women would certainly have more in common with the definition of women than of men, wouldn't they? So perhaps ignoring biology in your definition is what you're all failing to do, I don't know.

Honestly it's not my area, but that's my feeling on the subject. I also get the impression many of you are basing your feelings on particularly individuals from this group who you find abhorrent. There are abhorrent individuals in all groups, and they often shout the loudest.

BillyWilliamV

Have you looked at #transgirl?

Do you understand there are hoardes of men with autogenephilia? They get off by imagining they have a female body
Do you understand there are also hoardes of men, who hate women and have jumped on the trans trend specifically because they want to subsume women? Better still murder them.

Of course there are hundreds of decent transwomen just living their lives.

Its not my responsibility, shes never asked for anything but I know how people react, I know she spent Christmas alone and I knew her as a man when her life seemed so much easier from the outside.

There is so much hate on this thread, I am going to go and empty the dishwasher.

Thai ladyboys are analogous to a certain extent to what trans woman meant in the UK 20 years ago. They're in no way analogous to what it means now.

Maybe Im old fashioned, it just seems such a difficult way to choose to live your life. I work with a transwoman and she is so isolated and seems so unhappy. It breaks my heart.

Have you considered that it might be part of a pattern of mental health issues and self destructive behaviour? Why are their issues anyone else's responsibility? Sorry If you think that's cold. I do have sympathy, but most MTFs don't have much for me.

Are the 'lady boys' of Thailand considered to be the same as uk type male trans people?

As soon as there is any acknowledgement that there should be some limits to the phrase (whether to the meaning of “transwomen” or to the extent to which they are considered “a woman” in law or everyday life) the whole phrase becomes utterly meaningless. And the absurdity of refusing to engage in any debate (“#nodebate”) becomes clear.

Agree. And many activists know this. So they will just chant it like a cult mantra. Because they know any wavering or exceptions will a) expose their position as false and bring down the whole house of cards, and b) potentially expose them to aggression from transactivists and other trans allies. I find committed trans allies are worst than transactivists for mindlessly bleating "transwomen are women", and that is the reason why I think.

Maybe Im old fashioned, it just seems such a difficult way to choose to live your life. I work with a transwoman and she is so isolated and seems so unhappy. It breaks my heart.

I don't judge men by the ravings of MRA.

Billy, to be clear, I am talking about the TRAs.

I know there are hundreds of transexuals out there just trying to get on with life. And plenty of them are allies and horrified by what’s going on.

But yes there are hordes of men doing this for fun/attention/sexual gratification.

As I said upthread, #transgirl is an eye opener.

Yep.

"Do you actually know any transwoman, just trying to live their lives?"

Yes, I do.

Do you actually know any transwoman, just trying to live their lives? Maybe coping with male colleagues who are totally disgusted by them, estranged from their families? Knowing that they look horrendous by any "normal" standards but still having to try because life is unbearable otherwise. Do you really believe that there are hoardes of men doing this for fun? Because they get a kick out of pissing in the girl's loos?

Even when you can't see them and have no other clues the behavior is an instant tell for maleness. And then they're confused as to how we knew when we couldn't see them.

We've been dealing with overbearing men our whole lives, guys, this is not new to us.

Yes, I’ve said this before. It’s a very male-socialised attitude to expect the women to budge up out of the way to accommodate them, and it’s the reason for the utter rage when some of us speak out. Because we are being uppity and unfemale.

They don’t ‘feel’ like women at all. They just want to wear lipstick and dresses while swinging their bollocks around and demanding things. Because they can do womanning better than we can, you see.

There is a school of thought among some transwomen that they are "evolved" women - the next step so to speak.

Hopefully over time people will learn to spot the pattern quickly and stop giving them the validation and attention they're looking for.

"Even the "nice" ones generally have a tendency to center themselves that's socialized out of women at an early age. "

Exactly. Even on mumsnet, how many times have MIT come onto feminist threads to talk about their feelings and experiences, derailing the thread and making themselves to centre of attention.

Also, in relation to Lapdance's links, the refusal to accept third space options when offered was probably the last nail in the coffin for me in terms of willingness to try to find some sort of compromise. The compromise has been offered and consistently rejected. We tried.

Basically, if trans women have ladybrains, why don't they act like women generally do? Which they don't. Even the "nice" ones generally have a tendency to center themselves that's socialized out of women at an early age.

The idea that there are men and then there are defective non-men was perfectly summed up by that idiotic tweet from the Greens. It's always amazing to me when women repeat this stuff without realizing how misogynistic it is.

(Or, shorter What DonkeySkin Said.)

They don't believe it but some submit because male violence is the greatest human rights crisis the world has ever known and they are afraid to say no.
Others will pretend to believe the latest trend because of self interest.
Some see it as an opportunity to drive women out of the public sphere. Something they have wanted to do for a very long time.
Some feign belief as a virtue signal just like claiming to be Christian. Some think that the person believes they are transformed and transitioned and do not see the harm in going along with it.
A lot of time and effort has gone into convincing the public that transgender people have been cruelly treated and are murdered at enormously high rates. It isn't true but it has been said so many times and published in the news so many times that it has become conventional wisdom in spite of it being a lie.
My friend Rachel explained to me that what is going on right now in the general public is called “pluralistic ignorance”. In social psychology, pluralistic ignorance is a situation in which a majority of group members privately reject a norm, but incorrectly assume that most others accept it, and therefore go along with it.

Great comment, Inigo.

One thing I would take issue with is that I don't think anybody believes 'transwomen' are 'real woman'. The fact that people treat them very differently to actual women shows that. I think it is more accurate to say that people believe they have a legitimate claim to the title of 'woman', partly because they are unconsciously defaulting to an established belief in, as you mentioned, mind-body dualism (in this case the idea that 'feminine' souls can exist in male bodies and vice versa - the 19th C idea of 'inverts', transposed to 21st C neuroscience) and also because of the valorising of the primacy of individual will, 'the Hero's Journey', etc.

However, one thing I find interesting about this is how narrow the definition of 'femininity' is WRT to trans-identified males. In every culture, the female sex role is primarily defined not by liking make-up and high heels, but by the expectation that women should nurture others and put their needs before their own. The feminine things that TIMs generally take an interest in revolve around the symbols of femininity, not the actual female sex role, which is about taking care of others. Even very strong-minded and independent women are encultured into this to an astonishing degree - can you imagine a similar site called 'Dadsnet' where men spend hours each week participating in thousands of threads on the minutiae of housework and child care, and every conceivable aspect of taking care of others?

I find it telling that the majority of TIMs (both heterosexual and homosexual) display zero affinity for this aspect of femininity - and no one expects them to. Nobody notices that their claims to 'feel feminine' never encompass an interest in the boring, non-sexualised parts of femininity like housework, child care, elder care and and doing emotional labour for others.

So I would say that the 'trans women (have the right to claim to be) women' belief also springs from other, very old cultural beliefs, such as that women are basically defective men (Aristotle's claim), and that a defining aspect of womanhood is that we aren't supposed to have any self-determined boundaries, but should make our whole selves (including our ontological existence) open to men if men want it.