Why DO people 'believe' transwomen are women?

Or is it the man with the appendage who's more likely to assault me rather than his body part? I doubt anyone has the stats.

Not sure what you mean by stats.

But transwomen commit sexual and violent crime at exactly the same, in fact slightly more, rate then natal men.

Of the transwomen who are in prison, almost half are there for sex offences.

fairplayforwomen.com/prisons/transgender-prisoners

Men commit 98% of all sexually violent crime. This is not altered by transition.

Unfortunately there will always be women and girls who aren't comfortable being exposed to strange men, can you think a little about them for once?

They're standing on the shoulders of giants though Bertrand, those giants being feminists. Should we be embittered by that?

It's about teaching a whole generation of girls that their boundaries don't matter.

It's about teaching them they penisis are just flesh and blood and not to be afraid of, and it's the people wielding them that count.

It never occurred to me trans women aren't women until I joined mumsnet. I just accepted that they should live and be regarded as a woman. I still believe in the whole live and let live ethos. Could go back and forward all day along about whether they are woman or not, which is how these threads always goes

“Thinking about it if you defined "men" in similar terms, trans women would certainly have more in common with the definition of women than of men, wouldn't they? So perhaps ignoring biology in your definition is what you're all failing to do, I don't know.”

One of the things I find difficult is the fact that transwomen are characterized as marginalized and discriminated against while simultaneously pushing through, virtually unchallenged and incredibly quickly, one of the most supignificant social changes of all time. As I have said before, the use of the title ‘Ms” is still far from established 40 years on, but I bet if a TRA wanted to be called Ms she would be instantly...

Do your own research, Rat. Like I said, you're the one trying to shift the definition so you're the one who needs to demonstrate why that shift ought to happen.

I've lived on 4 different continents and people have known that a woman is an adult human female on all of them. Some cultures have a special social category for effeminate men, but nobody in those cultures is under any illusions about the sex of the men who exist within that category. When people in Thailand say woman, they mean the kind with a uterus and ovaries.

It is an issue Eresh but not all women share the same sense of what is dignified, clearly, and we can only do what is reasonable. If everyone else feels dignified in a situation but one does not, what do you do?

It's about teaching a whole generation of girls that their boundaries don't matter.

BillyWilliam - I'm sorry your colleague is so unhappy. But that doesn't mean they're a woman, which is what this thread is about. You agree with the majority on this thread - your colleague may not fit comfortably into the male box any more but they're not in the female one either.

Women are oppressed and cut and raped because of our biology. And thinking you can identify out of that is a luxury that many women don't have.

And I've never met a single TIM who passed and I know quite a few

Rat it’s interesting that you are seeing hate. I’m seeing fear

YY, I'm definitely seeing fear, but one is frequently the birth of the other. And not all fear is reasonable. I'm scared too. I'm scared my children will reject the bodies I grew for them and love with all my being, but I'm trying to see if really that's a justification to define other people's life experiences. I'm finding it's not.

It's not just about safety, though Rat. It's also about women's privacy, dignity and boundaries. Why is that not an issue?

Do you actually know any transwoman, just trying to live their lives?

Yes, three. They all oppose self-ID. Next?

Do you want to link to where it's "always" meant that, in every country, in every language Angry? Because it strikes me that the word is used in many contexts with different emphases (as most words can be), and that if one wanted to say "adult female human" one could just as easily say that.

Bertrand, i don't know, but I trust my unease. I guess it feels a bit like a load of people obsessed with dicks and fannies where the rest of the world doesn't give a shit. I mean am I really as likely to be raped by a transwoman's dick as I am by a man's? Really? Or is it the man with the appendage who's more likely to assault me rather than his body part? I doubt anyone has the stats. And if there's no statistical increase in the threat to me from transwomen, who cares what's in their pants? Except them of course - it means an awful lot to them - but hey, let's beat them round the head with it.

Perhaps it's me, perhaps it's because I hate people publication referencing my genitalia as if it makes any difference to anyone except me and my sexual partners. My womanhood matters in a societal context - it makes me less likely to get a pay rise for a start - but that's not because my boss is obsessed with my fanny.

I'm just imagining a group of women in a room because of being women. In my case the women a few years back who together with me brought an equal pay claim against our then employer. Some of us were feminine presenting, some were pretty androgynous, some were pretty butch. Some were in STEM jobs, some were in traditionally "female" roles like HR. Some were high flying managers, some were relatively new appointees at the bottom of the ladder. Some like computer gaming, some liked needlework. Some had children, some didn't ever want to have children.

Even being low-paid wasn't enough to define as women. There were some men in the company who were badly paid. Just proportionately less of them than there were women who were badly paid.

The only thing we had in common was our biology.

We won.

Its not my responsibility, shes never asked for anything but I know how people react

I don't hate MTF people. But don't try to emotionally blackmail me. Lots of people live difficult, isolated lives.

Rat it’s interesting that you are seeing hate. I’m seeing fear. Fear that women’s hard won rights to female (XX, penis-free) spaces, and our right even to express our fears about losing these, are being eroded.

A woman is an adult human female. If you want to go all humpty dumpty and insist “woman” means “oppressed underclass”, then women are going to have to find another noun to describe XX-humans.

XX-humans will have to fight all over again for XX-humans’ rights to have penis-free spaces, to ensure that XX-humans’ interests are adequately considered in policymaking, and to ensure that XY-humans don’t (accidentally or otherwise) oppress XX-humans because of their natural physical advantages.

Trans'women' are men. Full stop.

So greater discrimination and underrepresentation in higher positions in the workplace. Greater scrutiny over appearance and a more sexualised norm of acceptable presentation. More likely to suffer violence and sexual assaults. Generally lower paid, achievements less recognised or celebrated etc.

Whilst I agree with that is generally the way women are treated. It's still not the definition of the word woman. Because you will still have women who don't have that experience and you will have men who have.

Plus those things are coming from the outside. Constructed by society. And capable of being deconstructed.

“ I know you don't want to hear it.”

I absolutely want to hear it. I have been searching for non biological definitions ever since I became aware of this issue. I haven’t yet come across any that do not involve stereotypes. Can you say more?

"So greater discrimination and underrepresentation in higher positions in the workplace. Greater scrutiny over appearance and a more sexualised norm of acceptable presentation. More likely to suffer violence and sexual assaults. Generally lower paid, achievements less recognised or celebrated etc."

Rat, is that your definition of a women? Do you have any evidence that MIT fit thus definition?

Woman has always meant adult human female. If you want society to shift to an alternate definition then it's up to you to make a case for that, because you're the ones who're demanding a change.

Speaking from my own experience, the only transwomen I know are definitely now women.
I figure that what genitals someone has is none of my business unless they are likely to come into contact with mine.
Yes, I am in favour of "women only" spaces, safe for women, but the people I know meet this definition, and would therefore respect those spaces.
Maybe it's because they're also pagan?

Actually Angry biology is how you frame the question when you want the answer to yield a biological distinction. If you split the room down what we know to be biologically men and women and see what else the groups have in common you can arrive at other non-biological commonalities for the same groups. I know you don't want to hear it.

Billy
If your friend and colleague is just trying to quietly live their life, she is a decent human and transwomen. There are very few people on this thread, who would object to this or would choose to deny her choice or hate her.

The hate you see is not for your friend. It is pain and upset that we as women are being drawn into a war where we risk annihilation.

According to TRA’s. I’m not a woman. I’m a cis woman. TRA’s are women. I’m defective. Their arses are their vaginas. I have a front hole. If I do not subscribe to this then I am a TERF. Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist. They use this term for women and rarely for men. Despite claiming to be a woman, they threaten women and transwomen with these views with violence and rape with their “lady dick”.

See the picture. That’s what they think of me. They want me obliterated and in their “defence”when no defends is needed, they attack women like me saying we hate them and want them dead. Hyperbole.