Trans friendly thread - a follow up!

The thing is, I used to know what someone meant by the term transwoman -- someone like (I assume, can't see you from here!) Pigeon, Harv, Curry, Debbie Hayton etc. Totally happy to call those people transwomen if that's your preferred term.

Now, god knows what it's being taken to mean.

I'm happy to call a trans woman a trans woman and use pronouns
People who present female but commit male crimes/act male I would call a TIM as they don't deserve the courtesy of having their preferred title respected (Lily Madigan, Tara Hudson, India Willoughby)
People who just "identify as" I might call men. Danielle Muscato, Alex Drummond, Davina Ayrton etc
I can totally see why some women are starting to refuse to call any male a woman because it leads to a slippery slope and having to justify your position (as I'm sure I will in a minute).
But it isn't fair to people trying to manage their gender dysphoria not to help them by using their preferred title

One thing I will never do is accept "trans women ARE Women". Because that just isn't true

I agree with every single word of this

Sorry, Pigeon. That was me. I would always previously have been happy to say 'transwoman'. No, I'm uneasy about it, and I feel shit about that. But the language seems to have taken on a life of its own and had some really unfortunate consequences.

FWIW, I would still call a transwoman who was a decent human being a transwoman in real life, because when you like people you don't want to hurt their feelings. But in terms of strangers on the internet? Yeah, there's a wariness there that wasn't a few years ago, and that's sad for all of us.

Except for the angry shouty violent MRAs and fetishists who've taken over trans activism, they seem to be having the time of their lives.

I have spoken to/read posts about trans day of remembrance and it's incredibly clear people genuinely feel they are going to be killed for being trans, despite the fact that's not something that happens in the UK

That may be true, I am fearful sometimes, though statistically (yes I checked after all the 'trans-friendly' support groups decided we were all being killed all the time) it is far more unlikely for me than, for example, women.

But I'm not fearful of women who are asking questions, or who understand the realities of mine and others situation and don't see how that first into this current 'narrative'.

I'm fearful of the subset of men who do want to actually physically harm me (and they are probably the same sort who want to hate/harm many people)

I must be honest and say that it does upset me when people don't want to call me a transwoman, as that is how I describe myself. But it isn't women who have completely wrecked the trust and honour system we had going so I don't blame anyone who says it at all, I understand.

It's just a shame that that same kindness that meant people were happy to, of their own free will, make life a bit less painful for me has been taken advantage of by a large group of homophobic, woman hating, violent shitheads.

As a trivial and hypothetical example, TruthStar, I offer you this:

If DP is happier to sleep cuddling up, and I'm happier having more room and getting some distance from the bloody snoring, do I need to make DP happy at my expense?

(Oops, might have slipped slightly away from the hypothetical there.)

@Truthstar

I would like to think we all agree on that. No-one on here has any problem with someone deciding to present in a way society traditionally associates with the opposite sex if that makes navigating their way through life more comfortable for them.

But we still have to have space to debate the difficult questions.

For instance, is it ethical to put a child on puberty blockers when they are too young to understand the implications in terms of possible side effects (eg loss of bone density) and future sexual function? (Remember Gillick competence grew out of a trial regarding access to contraception - which protects girls against life-long consequences of adolescent decisions to have sex, not opens them up to life-long consequences.)

Or when a woman asks for a female HCP to do her smear test, and finds herself confronted with a trans HCP. Whose rights win? The woman's right to control who gets to touch her genitals, or the HCP's right to practice their profession without being discriminated against? There's no "sit on the fence till you get piles" option available here.

The legal and social world are full of these issues - women's sports, women's prisons, women's rape crisis centres. You can't stick your head in the sand with a bland "let's be nice to everyone", because sometimes in the real world there are hard choices to be made, and some decisions really are either/or with no middle ground.

I feel like most of these "just dropping in to virtue signal!" comments could be summed up as "I haven't actually thought about this and you can't make me!"

Yes, great, but what about when two unhappy people clash in their needs, TruthStar?

Anyone who has been unhappy and is trying to make their life more bearable has my 100% support xx

Urgh, I reread what I wrote and I'm not sure I'm expressing this properly.

I am not suspicious of Debbie Hayton. I think, though, that a genuine wish on her part to be accepted for who she is, and a genuine wish on our part to be accepting, together with the shared terminology of 'woman' for two different sexes, has led us all into an unholy mess, stirred up by those who are not remotely accepting and are entirely unasseptable, to quote Supernanny.

And there's a move to make the 'E' in terf stand for 'exterminatory

That will make them look rational.

That shift to a more radical position isn't actually our fault, though. The trust has been broken and we can't even start rebuilding it until the attempts to bulldoze through our boundaries stop.

The spreadsheet is gone but the folders are still available on the Google Drive link.
And there's a move to make the 'E' in terf stand for 'exterminatory'.

They are scared. They genuinely feel under attack. And for that I blame TRAs/stonewall and mermaids for pushing a load of bollocks as "fact"

Your interpretation is generous. Personally, I think that many just want to shut us up, silence us and keep us subordinated and scared - you know, like the good wimmins we are supposed to be.

I've just read some of Debbie Hayton's blog and articles, and I feel very saddened.

A few years ago, I would have been welcoming her as a woman, without that slight hitch in what to type, except perhaps into sports-n-nudity situations. I strongly suspect she isn't the type to shove in where not wanted.

Now? I don't know. I feel that even acknowledging someone like that as 'a woman' rather than a transwoman or even as a transwoman rather than trans-identified male is shifting that line in the sand. I want to welcome her; but she is right when she says 'Women who were once enthusiastic allies of trans people are now more suspicious.'

And this:
'Pieces of paper may give me the right to enter female spaces, but it can never prevent women from leaving en masse at the same time.' True, but where can the women then go? What about students like the women someone was mentioning a few days ago, being given a roomshare with a transwoman, and being told they are bigots (and left without a room) if they object?

Meanwhile the evil scary TERFs are busy trying to get our cats to play with the stuffed reindeer catnip toy we got them for Xmas...

But seriously, some day I hope all the kids who've been brainwashed into thinking that a bunch of mostly older radical feminists wanted to hurt them will look back at this stage of their lives and wonder what the hell they were thinking.

Faceicle I don't know where it comes from, but it seems to be how they operate. If misgendering someone is "actual violence" then maybe stating an opinion they do not agree with is "attacking" them. This gives them a justification for a "counter-attack".

Any one who does not agree with them (even actual trans people) is "transphobic".

Bad Debbie!

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That's a lovely opening statement Quentin and thank you. Did anyone else notice that the lady on twitter who was upset about the last thread referred to the posters as "attacking" the op? Much as the speakers corner TRAs shouted that the terfs were "attacking" when they were in fact a group of women assembling to talk politely amongst themselves - much like this and the last thread in fact. What is this narrative? Where did it come from?

Goodness, we've got a cast of thousands here! I did find Debbie's blog which I quite enjoyed. !