Women come last in Labour's deranged victim hierarchy - Rod Liddle in The Spectator

Rod Liddle is an absolute dick, a racist, misogynist dick, and nobody that I want on my side, quite frankly.

But it's the Spectator. Lots of people who read the Spectator will think that Liddle is a stand-up bloke and will listen to him. And I really hate saying this, believe me, but his article contains quite a lot of useful information for people who haven't yet heard it, like much of the Spectator readership. So a silver lining in the I-don't-want-your-help-stop-helping cloud.

Argh.

Rod Liddell is so much cleverer that you average ignorant Brit, particularly the media types-is he forgein? Or a member of the liberal club? Anyway, the thing that I love most about this article is the subtle implication that women's rights and the women who support them have been pushed out of the liberal metropolitan elite. One could say the sane for LGB rights supporters. A long and drawn out process hasconetp the fore. The British left is no longer liberal no matter what they call themselves.

Ereshkigal :
This issue will be won or lost on public perception and what politicians think the public want.

So true.

Thank you for putting in the legwork on this, Kiss, so impressive. I really appreciate it (especially as I saw you've been feeling unwell ). Like you believe that exposure is everything.

#ImGillianDuffy

We are al Gillian Duffy now

It seems a bit obvious that if we want everyone to agree with us we are going to end up with a lot of different people agreeing with us.

This puts me in mind of Gordon Brown calling a woman a bigot and losing a General Election. (There might have been other factors but it wouldn't have helped.)

On reflection in fact, assuming that everyone (especially women) agrees with everything loud people shout in their party is what has got Labour into this mess in the first place.

Tallulah: "Say what you like, he's quoted some actual women on this issue. Nobody else has given our viewpoint a platform at all."

Absolutely. The contrast with the Guardian couldn't be more stark.

By the way, I'm surprised Nick Cohen isn't that interested. He loathes Momentum, and he loathes Corbyn, so I'd have thought this would provide him with a terrific opportunity to attack both, if nothing else.

I also think it's brilliant that he mentions Zoe Kemp's comparison with the Paedophile Information Exchange, which a lot of us have brought up every time Owen Jones starts his tedious moralising about being on the wrong side of history. I'd like to think that even in Jones's self-satisfied mind, there might be a little glimmer of horror as it slowly dawns on him that, far from being on the right side of history, in a few years' time he will have to apologise for his association with something so fundamentally wrongheaded and dangerous as the current transactivism movement.

Wouldn't that just be satisfying. Oh so satisfying.

And I think the article is great - it's a coup to get journalists across the political spectrum to wade in. In order to start debating and to push back against what's happening, we need to normalise discussing the issue. Because at the moment, we are still not allowed iyswim. Every sensible discussion is drowned out by a wave of aggressive victimhood.

Kiss, I think you're doing a great job.

Isn't "Divide And Conquer" how the majority of battles are won?

That was to @Collidascope

Yes - similarly with my dad. Votes Tory. First thing he did on hearing that Cameron had promised to bring Syrian families over here from refugee camps (still waiting for that one to happen) was go to the local council offices and say "I have a huge house - if you need to house some people temporarily, here's my address." Also one of the most staunch feminist allies I've ever known (which he puts down to being brought up by a single mum, marrying a ferociously intelligent, independent woman, and having 2 daughters...)

it is very good that Rod Liddle was happy to write about this, and he does do it well. And the Spectator has such a huge mainstream coverage. I am sorry to have been disparaging Kiss. Asking for favours is hard work and it's really great that this is there.

I think it's bloody brilliant - most people I work with and the vast majority of my extended family will view Rod Liddle as a voice of reason, however much we like this. These are the people who every day make small decisions that can prioritise transwomen over women in lots of small ways that eventually erode our rights because they haven't thought about the impact beyond live and let live.

No amount of feminist reasoning is going to change their opinions, things like this and outrage over sports are the only things I've found to bridge the gap in the conversation. We can't win this fight through ideological debates in the Labour party alone - we need the weight of public opinion behind us to make them realise that their current trajectory is electoral suicide.

Actually, one of the things that bothered me a little about the crowdfunder was Jennifer James refusing to talk to certain newspapers about it, and also telling one bloke not to bother donating if he was a Tory. I don't think demonising the right is helpful. You get left wing twats and right wing twats, and you get good people on both sides too. My mum, for example, always votes Tory and routinely walks round handing out her money to homeless people and donating to every charity going. Of course the very language we use (left and right) places them as polar opposites, which is so simplistic.

#yesdebate

All viewpoints welcome

And a round of applause from me for KissMyCis' press-wrangling abilities

@KissMaCis - thank you so much for getting this out there.

Much as I disagree with Ron Liddle on a lot of issues, this is an extremely good article, not least because (as other posters have said) he actually gets it - he sees that this is anti self-ID, not anti-trans and clearly, succinctly and fairly articulates the issue.

Another centrist here, btw! Little OJ's latest hate figure. Much as I hated what Blair did with the Iraq War - which drove me from Labour to vote Green in the following election, and despite my huge dislike for PFIs, I massively appreciate him making Labour electable after the Thatcher years. (I am old enough to remember Militant Tendency, Derek Hatton, Michael Foot et al. And the winter of discontent. And the way that created the backlash conditions which enabled Thatcher to eviscerate trade unions while the public cheered.)

Miranda Yardley is an ally. I’ve been softening Nick Cohen, but he’s meh about it. I’ll keep working. I’m about exposure, not brownie points on where the piece is. The more voices across all divides are important.

Sadly a lot of people in the uk are a little bit misogynistic, homophobic, racist, or a combination of the above. Even a lot of people who are left leaning have dodgy views on at least one issue.

These are the general public who need to know what is happening, and articles like this are how they find out.

Kiss getting this into mainstream debate is brilliant. Don't feel downhearted. Lots of comments here are very pleased/supportive.

I normally hate RL's writing but thought this was great. Good for him that he's prepared to say something unpopular but important. If lefties aren't doing it that says something about them not you.

Also his audience have influence over what MPs decide about GRC changes. It won't be a decision Labour can make alone.

It would be great to also get a moderate left voice on this. And a trans person supporting our side.

nauticant
Totaly agree.

However, I can see I wasn't in this conversation before and coming in after the event to say this is not 100% positive from my POV is not helpful.

I will bow out.

KissMaCiss
Feminists have always disagreed on the way forward - that's because we are not an oppressive, bigoted group like the trans activists.
I understand people who are uncomfortable and respect their right to disagree and to state it.
In this instance, I think the piece is really useful and as I said before, we are going to need to collectively 'hold our noses' or our arguments will remain within our own echo chambers and this MUST be in the public domain.
#muchdebate