Women come last in Labour's deranged victim hierarchy - Rod Liddle in The Spectator

I don't read the Graun much anymore. I can't afford a times subscription. So it's the Telegraph for me. It's OK.

Hairy I was following someone who'd tweeted something sensible in the US, and then they changed their username to end with "...theTruther" and after thinking !!!!!!! I carried on following them anyway. It's produced quite a few unpleasant surprises in my timeline, but it's certainly been illuminating.

And there are things about the Spectator I like! (But Rod Liddle isn't one of them.) And ten years ago if I'd been asked what broadsheet would have a reporter really standing up for women, I'd never have guessed that it would be The Times.

That's interesting Hairy. I only look at the Telegraph online (same reasons as you, try to read a range of views). Online it seems to have morphed into the Brexit Times and hugely repetitive on the arguments for leaving with no counter arguments. So good to know the actual rag is more wide-ranging.

What's up with Fraser Nelson's accent, Assigned?

I've mentioned this before but my "step out of the liberal bubble" resolution post Trump involved taking out a subscription to the Torygraph, and as with the Spectator, I've been pleasantly surprised by the wide range of voices, including quite a lot of solidly feminist articles. (They also have Allison Pearson, and her victim blaming, and "brown-ness" scale of culpability on rape, but I guess nothing is without its annoying features).

I have to say the Spectator these days is very good on publishing a range of voices on a topic.

Kis

Brilliant,well done,thank you so much.
Thats all

But fuck sake, Fraser Nelson, sort your bloody accent out

The Independent is almost worse than the Guardian for pro trans hyperbolic guff.

Yes, there really is #nodebate

Like this is supposed to be a good thing in a working democracy!?!

Lang - totally agree on the anti-authoritarian stance. Authoritarians terrify me regardless of political persuasion. Which is why I doubt I'll be able to bring myself to vote Labour next time round.

Chemistry

"I have to say I'm baffled by the concept that in order to think an opinion article is good, I have to agree with everything that writer has ever written ever and therefore if there are ANY of their opinions on ANY topic I disagree with, I must disagree with all and hate everything they write. "

^ Totally agree and this pack mentality is the reason^ we are in this bloody mess.

The Spectator is a good read and even I I don't agree with much of it, I can appreciate a well written and reasoned article. It also makes me question my own beliefs, which is surely a good thing.

Or are we all sheep?

The Independent is almost worse than the Guardian for pro trans hyperbolic guff.

EXACTLY! The liberal left media is a bloody embarrassment at the moment.

It really is.

I love this thread btw - I want to nod enthusiastically and exclaim 'EXACTLY!' at 99% of the posts.

You are all eminently sensible comrades

Keep going Kiss. I know, from personal experience, how much leg work goes in to getting an issue into the public arena.

But I still carry a torch for that second-wave feminism which is now under the cosh.

As a 2nd wave feminist I can forgive Liddle a lot for that one statement alone.

I'm not Labour but did contribute to GoFundMe because it is sad to see a former great political movement for social justice (that I once thought Labour was) disappearing up its own fundament in the race to embrace a minority cult and prove its fluffy credentials.

It might also be helpful to the cause if those who see the world in terms of left good, right bad, acknowledge that real life is a little more nuanced that that.

KissMyCis I did not know that you'd put in the legwork on this, and I don't want to rain on your parade, I am sorry!

I do think he's an utter dick, but - as I said - in this case he's an utter dick who has written sensible things on this issue, for an audience which will probably not yet have heard these sensible things, and which we'd be unlikely to reach otherwise. The stance that most people of his particular dickishness have taken is the "lol feminist lefty snowflakes turning on each other lol!" type, so this is indeed infinitely better than that.

(I don't know if this kind-of-apology is worse than my original post here, Kiss....)

I'm sure Rod Liddle thinks we are all dicks as well. But he has taken time to listen, understand and put some critical points of the feminist argument forward on a critical feminist issue. Which is a darn sight more than any left wing male writers I can currently think of, so far.

EXACTLY! The liberal left media is a bloody embarrassment at the moment.

Great to see this debate out there in the mainstream. I'd like to see the TRAs trying to get RL "No platformed" or forced out or whatever over this as if they would.
I mean real hardworking women are being bullied, threatened, forced to resign in all areas over this issue. Men seem magically immune.

Anyway after reading the article I scrolled down and couldn't help but see another article of his
"Equal pay for women could bankrupt the BBC"... didn't read it though. I don't care about his views on other subjects.
Get this debate out in the open. #yesdebate

Anonymise and Nauticant - I agree completely. Labour has shed many many supporters through its arrogance and the damage has been clear over the past couple of years.

And yes, I know Corbyn has breathed new life, yada yada. But the fact remains that, to my mind, since the days of Milliband (who started following Lily Madigan recently on Twitter to show support) - the party has actively alienated its core demographic. And worse still, it seems to despise them.

This whole business is, to me, the nail in the coffin. Women need to cancel their memberships en-masse to create a big news story.

KissMaCis

Also perfectly happy to get in bed with right-leaning journos and publications on this issue. It isn't a left/right issue. It is a pro-woman issue for the most part. And it is also an anti-authoritarian issue as a subtext. I'm well on the left but I am not an authoritarian and I really want to oppose the growing authoritarianism in the current left activism.

As others have said, the only people I would be uncomfortable getting into bed with would be religious evangelists.

I'm sure Rod Liddle thinks we are all dicks as well. But he has taken time to listen, understand and put some critical points of the feminist argument forward on a critical feminist issue. Which is a darn sight more than any left wing male writers I can currently think of, so far.

Thankyou KissMaCis this is fucking awesome!

It's so heartening that influencers like that think what we are thinking - hopefully the people they influence will agree. It's like The Times' coverage which makes me think it might all work out ok.

Please keep up all your efforts

I’ll be sure to tell him your views Annie , when I next catch up with him.