How can we work towards a constructive debate about all things transgender?

MidwitchCuckoo wrote "How do we meet the needs of these two groups? Completely side stepping the argument about whether trans women are women or not."

I think that asking how to "meet the needs of these two groups" is just code for "transwomen are not women" because if transwomen (i.e. transgender-identifying males) are women, then there is only one group: women.

(I believe that transwomen are transgender-identifying males; they are not women).

Yep. People disagree and probably aren't going to agree any time soon (ever), so given that, let's discuss what we're actually going to do about issues a, b, and c.

TIMs are facing bigotry and exclusion, but it's not coming from women.

the problem here is not women being trans exclusionary

It's men being exclusionary of males who reject masculinity

Rejecting masculinity is fine

And men need to be less bigoted about it.

As long as this is a conversation about whether trans women are women, no agreement is possible. We need to offer an alternative narrative.

Exactly Truth.

“Transwomen are women!”
“No they’re not”
^ can go on forever and doesn’t get us anywhere.

It’s the same as “god exists”
“No he doesn’t”

I don’t work for them btw, I have written to them as a concerned citizen and they are engaging with this argument.

That's good to hear, Midwitch

Have namedchanged and can’t say much but I have been making headway with a significant organisation using the following argument:

Some people believe that trans women are women. Some people don’t, for reasons which do not amount to bigotry. How do we meet the needs of these two groups?

Completely side stepping the argument about whether trans women are women or not.

I think that the practical details of access to spaces etc for trans people can be debated but not the question of whether people are or are not the sex they claim to be, because the answer to that is "no" and giving any ground there will undermine any other efforts.

(Also it's not true.)

(and real life shouty and punchy people, didn't mean to minimise that)

So agree to disagree (with someone making the decisions, not the shouty twitter people), but work out individual, sensible reasons against problematic areas of self id, and put forward alternatives if there are any.

I don't know if it's possible to bypass the belief question but we're not going to get anywhere without doing so, because as it is it's like arguing about transubstantiation.

Believer - This wafer is literally the body of Christ
Unbeliever - No it's not, I met the woman who baked it earlier
Believer - Heathen! Repent!

But with gender.

@Whatnextxx I tend to agree with you on this. Safe space seems to be the deal breaker.

How do you debate a religious belief? That's what "trans women are women" is. Facts that contradict the person's belief are then a test of their faith which they will attempt to rise to.

Exactly throughtheforest

We need to force a debate. Petition parliament is the best way.

I really think it's ignorant to think that your experience will be the same as other women's and that you can speak for them. There are plenty well informed women who will argue the practicalities of self identification. A million other threads in fact. I have not witnessed transphobia, merely a concern regarding practicalities over a very very complex issue.

Good for you Paperdoll, you do not speak for me, or for my life experience.

The important thing is not to convince transgender activists, but to convince the government. Spelling things out in a petition that might be supported by the general public. The key thing being that people should be defined by sex rather than gender? With transgender people being protected against discrimination - they already are, but the definition could be changed.

I care about women’s rights, I care about transgender rights, it takes nothing from me - someone who has the luck of feeling right in their own skin - to call someone she if they want me to or accept someone for themselves whatever clothes they’re wearing. I don’t feel threatened by men in mixed sex bathrooms so why should I feel threatened by a transgender woman in bathroom? I don’t understand the anti-trans sentiment I see on here, I think it’s unnecessary and ignorant.

Whilst men are verbally and physically assaulting women there is no way forward.

I know there's been so much abuse and shutting down of attempts to debate but has there been anything like a list of 'you're saying this, we don't think that'll work because of this, how about this instead?' Like for prisons for example. Offer reasonable solutions to get the talk about specifics rather than sweeping catch all principals (which are important but not going to move things forward on their own).

Sadly I think we live in a very polarised world at the moment and constructive debate on many issues seem to out of reach. I care so much about women's rights, read that as women's rights, not transgender rights, but I feel I might have to disengage with all this because what is going on is such a headfuck that it is starting to feel like giving up is the only way to protect my mental health.