How can we work towards a constructive debate about all things transgender?

Trans identifed male also refers to gender fluid and non-binary as a collective term.

Also people like Travis of top shop notoriety. Who claims he is a trans femme, not a woman.

In terms of segregation and not appropriating the word woman, it doesn't matter how a man identifies, or what he calls himself.

Trans also means transvestite.

'Transgender' doesn't necessarily mean identifying as a male or a female.

Goldenbug wrote - "And Trans Identifying Male (TIM) makes no sense at all. To say that they identify as trans? They don't! Whether right or wrong they identify as women"

I accept that it is not an accurate term.

I think that alternatives such as ""female identifying male" or "woman identifying male" are at risk of being misunderstood as referring to a female who believes she is a boy or man, when the intended meaning is actually a male who believes he is a girl or woman.

I think the search for a better term would not be easy, bearing in mind that many people already misunderstand the word "transwoman", mistakenly assuming this refers to a female person who believes she is a man. (Of course, militant transactivists will only accept girl or woman).

Also toilets are not just for adults, my daughter would also go in them. Should I tell her men in toilets pose no risk?

Terry thanks for your kind comment at 15:47

I think we need segregation in any area that biology makes a difference

But I would go further than that. I think single-sex education and Girl Guides, etc should be legally possible.

cornflakegirl I'd say the main point about toilets is that biologically we don't use them in the same way. We don't wee in the same position and men don't need sanitary products/bins.

I think we need segregation in any area that biology makes a difference (health, sports) or makes people vunerable (mental health care, rape crisis, prisons).

Cornflake girl.

Sexual assault has never been higher, or more widely reported. Why would we now want to give up our safe spaces?

I have spoken about my reasons for hating shared toilets, etc, with men on other threads, etc - but I don't think getting down to the details of mine, or lots of different opinions and comfort-levels for boundaries in each micro-situation, will be very fruitful.

There are many reasons people (including me) feel uncomfortable about them, and there are some people who don't mind, or some who mind in one situation or not the other.

Isn't the pressing issue whether we have a right to sex segregation in any situation at all?

YY therealposieparker

Guardian - where do you want to be segregated from men - and why? I'm quite happy to sit next to a man at work, or on the train. We have ladies' toilets because 200 years ago the public toilets weren't suitable for women to use. Is it important to keep them now? Genuine question - I know some women feel very uncomfortable having a man in the same toilet block as them, and I'm not suggesting they're wrong to feel that. But I think it would be useful to discuss which spaces we're happy to share, and which we're not.

Simple. Women are adult human females and not a feeling. Everything else is up for grabs.

Trans women can have sex work and porn, paid the same as women... but they remain legally male, they make no demands on women's spaces, sports or anything else. They make no demands that we change our language to include them. They understand that I, and most people with eyes and ears, do not see them as women.

Additionally, schools stay the fuck out of advocating breast binding and lesbian erasing policies.

thanks jelly I have just dipped into that thread - looks great so far - I'll have a read later..

Interesting cornflakegirl - but I actually want sex segregation from men who aren't a threat too.

Of course I don't want predators anywhere near children or any other vulnerable people - but that is a different argument from simply wanting to have space segregated from men - even perfectly lovely, benign ones.

I wonder if, as a PP said, we need to separate the issue of innate gender and biological sex - park the first and concentrate on the second. I don't believe I've got an innate gender - but maybe I'm wrong, maybe there is something in brain development that will be shown to explain why some trans people feel they have the wrong body.

But even if that were true - we have sex segregation for a reason, and it isn't to do with our shared interest in knitting and cupcakes. I'm honestly not sure how far I think segregation should go. I don't think an 8yo girl should have a penis in her face in a changing room - but if that man is a threat, I don't really want him in a changing room with my 8yo son either. He's no less vulnerable just because he also has a penis. I think an honest conversation about where sex segregation is important would be really helpful.

This was an interesting thread from a little while ago which seems to cover many of the points brought up on this one:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3034143-It-was-the-Gender-Recognition-Act-that-messed-everything-up?pg=1

GuardianLions

Your posts at 11.53 and 15.04 beautifully and eloquently sum up exactly how I see the current situation and how it should change - brava!

It's always seemed ridiculous to me that you can legally change sex and amend all official documents accordingly when it's not actually possible to change sex.

I'm thinking - it would be even better if you could get a TIF, a TIM a transvestite/drag queen and a 'butch' woman to lead the petition - how amazing would that be?

I think we should really thrash out these ideas, word them really carefully and succinctly, create a petition and hopefully have a TIM lead it - so that people could get behind it and sign.

It would really get past all the 'what is a woman' nonsense...

Safeguarding safeguarding safeguarding.

Stress importance and need for it to PROTECT and help the trans community itself.

Very eell said, GuardianLions.

TIMs may face ridicule for their ludicrous claims to be women, but that is not the same as ridiculing them for being gender non-conforming men.

Hear, hear to protecting gender non-conformity. It is the ruthless policing of gender stereotypes which leads to transwomen being beaten up and ridiculed; not transphobia.

Sorry not change sex, change gender!

I think I am right in saying that currently in the EA:

Sex is a protected characteristic

also that

'transsexuals' are protected

Then the current legal fiction exists claiming that it is possible to change sex ie- you can get F instead of M on your birth cert and passport.

Changing 'sex' needs to be exposed as a fiction and reversed, otherwise legal 'sex-changers' will be entitled to all rights and protections of the opposite sex - which is unethical.

'Gender identity' also needs to be changed to 'gender non-conformity' as a protected characteristic - because

a) gender 'identity' is a bollocks meaningless term - that suggests people get to choose what they are, against all fact and evidence and

b) this is part of the hashing together -conflating 'gender' and 'sex'.

Saying 'conformity/non-conformity' suggests gender is rules/systems that can be conformed to or not - there is an actual observable basis in reality for that.

But 'identity' - what do they mean by that? People are discriminated against because of what they are not because of what they 'identify as'. If you openly and vociferously 'identify as' something you are clearly not, then you may face ridicule for being a bit of a twat, but that is different from being targeted for something that you actually are, for example, being gender non-conforming.

The thing is, though, I wonder about things like female-only train carriages. Because a lot of these things I read here seem to me to point to problems that aren't often mentioned.

If train travel has become dangerous to women to the point that we have to segregate them off in a separate enclosure, shouldn't we be looking at a. Mens' behaviour, and b. Public safety on mass transit?

I agree with that, and I am not optimistic about having a constructive debate with TRAs. What I do hope - and I think many of us have seen this our partners and our children - is that we might be able to make people like our well-meaning trans-ally friends and colleagues realise where we're coming from and shift the mood a bit.

Small aims, I know.

Sorry not change sex, change gender! Agree with pp above who says to start using the terms correctly.