Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

How can we work towards a constructive debate about all things transgender?

209 replies

TruthIsNotHate · 24/01/2018 22:14

It's absolutely needed, but I just can't see how we can get to a position where it's possible.

OP posts:
AngryAttackKittens · 26/01/2018 00:31

This would definitely explain the aggressive campaigning by transactivists to make it self certification only. If therapists had started denying a diagnosis/certificate to AGP individuals

There have always been therapists who denied a diagnosis for this reason. There was one 20-ish years ago in California that hit the news because when the (younger, female) therapist didn't furnish the desired diagnosis as quickly as the patient wanted he shot her.

AngryAttackKittens · 26/01/2018 00:27

Would be great if I could get the bold feature to work consistently...

Datun · 26/01/2018 00:27

Just catching up with the thread.

Some excellent suggestions.

I, too, can feel any kind of a compromise as unacceptable.

Partly because of the Overton window, but partly because it just isn't.

This would definitely explain the aggressive campaigning by transactivists to make it self certification only. If therapists had started denying a diagnosis/certificate to AGP individuals.

^^ this is what started it, I believe.

Historically AGP individuals were denied treatment. The NHS wasn't about finance a fetish.

At which point it switched from transsexual to transgender.

If you identifying as a woman is a feeling and not a medical diagnosis, you can easily disguise a fetish as a feeling.

Legitimising transgender not transsexual started the ball rolling with regards to the desperation to access women's spaces.

And, of course, the party line is that you actually don't need gender dysphoria to be trans.

The born in the body narrative has been accepted without question, to the point where it doesn't have to be backed up by any kind of dysphoria.

Saying you can't be trans
without gender dysphoria is transphobic.

It's such a fucking stitch up.

AngryAttackKittens · 26/01/2018 00:26

*The thing is, regardless of politicians and of postmodernism’s abdication of “Truth,” most people have a sense of fair play. Just like damn near everyone knows what women are, and they also know that there are enough men who are a threat to girls and women that women have to take care. I bet there’s not one man in the UK who hasn’t, at some time in his life, said to a girl or woman, “Be careful,” and both he and she knew exactly who he was warning her against.

The question isn’t, What is a woman? Because that’s not up for debate — everyone really does know the answer. A woman is the one who gets pregnant, and a man is the one who impregnates. Arguing hypothetical “what if’s” about infertility, menopause, or genetic disorders is just sophistry. Without impossible leaps forward in neurobiology, arguments for brain sex have the exact same validity as 19th century arguments that women’s “wandering” uteri caused hysteria.

People also know there isn’t such a creature as a half-man half-woman. One or the other, that’s it. When Fallon Fox fractured Tamika Brent’s skull, no one had to ask if he was on hormones or if he still had his dick, in order to understand what they were seeing. Everyone knew that regardless of his hormonal state or the configuration of his genitals, they were watching a man bash a woman’s head in.

Julie Bindel had the exact right answer to Jane Fae’s sophistry when she said, “You don’t know you were born!”

The question really is: why on earth should men have the right to decide they’re women? Never once budging from the position that everyone knows what a woman is.*

This is part of the reason why I'm not willing to play along with the softly softly approach. At the moment some part of the public has been conned into thinking that all trans people are part of a group that's more at risk than women as a group. That assumption rests partly on misogyny (always easy to brush women's needs and concerns aside) and partly on the idea that "trans woman" means "dysphoric feminine gay man who's already had his penis removed or intends to do so as soon as possible". I can see why most people feel concern for those particular trans women. Those trans women are now a minority within their own movement, though, and it's vital that we get that information out to the public, because right now when people are asked how they feel about trans access to sex segregated spaces that's who most of them are picturing, and they have no idea that the legal changes being made will also open the doors to Stefonknee and the bloke running female orgasm workshops and Danielle Muscato and that Tara dude who beat up the woman at Speakers Corner a host of other assorted MRAs and fetishists. And most of the media is failing to make the distinction too (or possibly actively trying to suppress that information in the case of The Guardian). So if we want to stop these laws going through then we need to make sure that the public knows exactly what they're signing off on. Which involves letting them know that if the proposed legal framework is adopted, Danielle Muscato has just as much right to access women's sex segregated spaces as the dysphoric feminine gay men that they're picturing.

Talking about fetishism and MRA style politics among trans activists can come across as "mean" and hostile. There's no way to avoid that, because we're telling people something that they may not want to hear and there are a lot of groups/individuals with a vested interest in stopping us from telling people those things. These conversations are going to get ugly. Lots of women are angry that things have gotten to this point in the first place, and that's going to come across in the way they speak about these issues. Women are allowed to be angry.

It's one thing to strategize about how best to present our points in a policy document or a news article, but I really don't think we should be trying to stifle the way women speak to each other on a feminist forum about how they feel about this situation.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 26/01/2018 00:24

I think we need to start over. I think we need a watertight legal definition of females that can never be opted in to by males, ever. Enforceable boundaries for women that can be applied against all men. And strong protections against discrimination and abuse for men who wish they were women, but are not

In a way, I agree. I think it is a shame that the old honour system with transwomen will be broken down, though, and they will be forced to categorise themselves as a separate group in order to receive protection.

This might seem off the wall, but I also think we need a strong review of medical ethics.

HeatedCatFurniture · 25/01/2018 23:45

I'm just getting angrier and angrier about this. When someone 'assigned female at birth' gets into Eton, or becomes a member of the Garrick Club, or sits in the Oval Office in a baseball cap, or tells the man trying to rape them in an outhouse in India that it won't work because they're a man, then we can talk. Until then, I am not buying any of this shit.

BeyondWitchbitchterf · 25/01/2018 23:24

Marking my place for the morning

Catabogus · 25/01/2018 22:57

'Sex change' is a lie that is hurting people

I fully agree. But, tactically, are we ever likely to bring the moderate general public on board with this? Those who have long accepted that old-style male transsexuals who have had "sex changes" are, to all intents and purposes, women - and vulnerable women at that? Are they likely to be convinced to oppose self-ID if we start from such a radical position?

ladyballs · 25/01/2018 22:54

Well said Barracker

BarrackerBarmer · 25/01/2018 22:38

If a burglar broke into your house and stole your TV, then claimed it was his too, I'm not sure people would think it was reasonable to suggest a compromise of sharing your TV with the thief.

What TiMs have stolen isn't just a word. They've stolen the means with with women can distinguish ourselves from them. They've stolen our rights to represent ourselves. They've claimed the right to define both themselves AND US, and dishonestly at that, and ensured we are prevented from our say about the matter.

I'm not feeling much like compromise.

The legal fiction that was created when the law allowed men to become women on paper was created without thought for impact on women, and with, I suspect, the proviso that this 'wrong' was on such an infinitesimally small scale that the wrong could be dismissed.

That scale is no longer infinitesimally small. The impact is now enormous. The hole in the dam can't be plugged by the finger of a small child any more and the dam wall is breaking.

I think we need to start over. I think we need a watertight legal definition of females that can never be opted in to by males, ever. Enforceable boundaries for women that can be applied against all men. And strong protections against discrimination and abuse for men who wish they were women, but are not.

Payfrozen · 25/01/2018 22:38

A couple of little bits of light this week

Secretary at work says when everyone else is out of office, "So what do you make of open plan and gender neutral (shared) toilets? I just don't get it. I wouldn't use them and I certainly wouldn't have wanted to as a girl dealing with heavy periods, not with boys in there, not now people have phones."

My teen DC had transformation street on. One of them offered, "Gender is a social construct." It might have been to save me the bother though.

One of them asked, "So there are more trans women than trans men?" I said well most referrals to the Tavistock clinic are girls actually...

Later I said it's sad as they think that this surgery will solve their problems. The teens nodded and didn't argue.

Their online and school lives have a lot of gender queer/non binary/anime ideas so trying to drip drip an alternative perspective.

GuardianLions · 25/01/2018 22:22

I don't like the idea of compromising. It undermined every argument when JJ conceded that TIMs with a GRC should be allowed onto AWS.

I felt my support wither a bit at that point.

There are so many mainstream ways to tackle this without lying.

In essence my beef is this:

'Sex change' is a lie that is hurting people

It hurts gender dysphoric people by reinforcing delusional thinking.
It hurts children and young people who damage their bodies, their relationships and their fertility.
It hurts women and girls by taking away their sex-based rights.
It hurts homosexuals by making them question their sex and orientation.

This lie should not be enshrined in law

Catabogus · 25/01/2018 22:11

*Liddle, obviously (autocorrect!)

Then again - it has just occurred to me - maybe there are also strategic reasons to be more radical in our demands: as a PP pointed out, it helps to shift the Overton window. But only if enough people hear us, and I’m not sure they will unless we can find a way to make what we want seem more appealing to the mainstream.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 25/01/2018 22:09

GRC and sex change stuff being a fiction, and that we should be campaigning for these things to be abolished

We should, but there is more than one way to skin a cat, and I still feel that the above can be achieved purely by really focusing on women's rights.

Catabogus · 25/01/2018 21:54

I can’t help feeling that perhaps there is a difference between what we (some of us) really believe and what would be useful as tactics.

I mean, I wholeheartedly support what Materialist and DonkeySkin have said about the whole GRC and sex change stuff being a fiction, and that we should be campaigning for these things to be abolished - and ideally replaced with support for non#conformity to sex-stereotypes.

However, I also think that in the short term, if what we want to do is prevent self-ID changes to the GRA, then perhaps we need to campaign more tactically and more conservatively, to try to bring on board a wider range of more mainstream voices. Like the Rod Liddell piece this morning - I deplore the man's views, but I think it might be useful to have this stuff published in The Spectator and brought to the attention of those who would not normally engage with radical feminism at all, if we want to have any hope at all of preventing self-ID.

But then a small part of me says that this is being intellectually dishonest - so I genuinely don’t know what is the right way forward.

Payfrozen · 25/01/2018 20:42

ItsAllGoing

That's not incoherent at all. Really useful. I'm meeting a friend who is a "nicer" feminist than I am next week. I will use some of your suggestions.

Justabunchofcunts · 25/01/2018 20:24

YourVagesty if we get all the female MPs on side they get the vote on what happens to the GRA and GRCs. One on side would be a start.

GuardianLions · 25/01/2018 20:23

I wonder - if Maria MacLaughlan didn't mind - if it would be worth standing outside the court hearing with placards to capitalise on the publicity?

DonkeySkin · 25/01/2018 20:19

ApocalypseNowt, yes, it does really help. I think a lot of people, especially women, have an uncomfortable feeling that something is not quite right about all this, but they wouldn't say it aloud or even let themselves think deeply about it, because the pro-trans cheerleading is so intense. When you push back against it, you give someone permission to think about their own doubts, to realise there is another way of looking at this. Even if they don't say anything at the time, you have planted a seed.

YourVagesty · 25/01/2018 20:19

We need a mass protest that garners a lot of attention. A good current one would be for all Labour members to end their memberships. Be even better if every female MP resigned.

And all female sports persons who are forced to compete against men.

Etc etc.

GuardianLions · 25/01/2018 20:13

There is a TIM on twitter who is fighting to have it classified as a mental illness twitter.com/Jenn_pansexual/status/953380648722432001

ApocalypseNowt · 25/01/2018 20:09

I read of lot of threads on women's right but don't often comment because a) it takes me ages to read them and by the time i've thought of something the discussion has moved on or someone else has already made the point and b) because I sometimes feel a bit dim compared to people on here.

Anyway, that said I think one thing that helps is speaking out. It used to be that I never mentioned anything on this topic irl or online but I'm gradually getting a bit braver and I will (sometimes) speak up and I comment or retweet interesting blogs/articles on twitter.

I'm not the sort who usually posts anything vaguely political so I think if more and more people like me join in then our 'side' becomes stronger and maybe more people will start to feel brave too.

OnTheList · 25/01/2018 20:06

The NHS website lists Body Dysmorphic Disorder as a mental health issue and gender dysphoria as not, but do these two issues not have strong similarities?

I would like to know how body dysphoria and sex dysphoria are any different. How one can be classed as a mental illness and not the other..makes absolutely no sense.

Having said that, 'gender dysphoria' seems to be about stereotypes and not much else. So I wouldn't say it was a mental illness to not be a feminine woman or a masculine guy. I came across the diagnostic reasons for gender dysphoria a few weeks ago and I was utterly shocked that even with the tightened criteria, it can still be diagnosed based on just stereotypes if its anything like the diagnosing in children criteria. I was arguing with someone on twitter who was saying its nearly impossible to get a gender dysphoria diagnosis for a transkid (the stats say otherwise oddly enough Hmm) and they showed me the criteria expecting me to then agree with them, and it made me worse.

The bit where you only need 5 of 7...can all be about stereotypes, where to me, the only ones that actually mean anything are the dislike of own sexual anatomy (though I would argue that a LOT of girls approaching puberty will feel this) and desire for characteristics of opposite sex. The other 5 are absolute bullshit and totally 'normal' anyway

How can we work towards a constructive debate about all things transgender?
GuardianLions · 25/01/2018 20:03

So much work had clearly been put into these elaborate lies.

Deranged narcissists are obsessive, determined and they do not GAF about law, rules, fairness.

GuardianLions · 25/01/2018 20:01

The NHS website lists Body Dysmorphic Disorder as a mental health issue and gender dysphoria as not, but do these two issues not have strong similarities?

Whatever deranged narcissists want, deranged narcissists get

  • including taking on the NHS to reclassify mental illnesses
Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is closed and is no longer accepting replies. Click here to start a new thread.

Swipe left for the next trending thread