How can we work towards a constructive debate about all things transgender?

Having said that I am very happy it now has over 20K and 1150 donors!

It is hard to say because it is all bundled together and the long and short of it is that TIMs with a GRC can go on AWS.

I'd prefer to not be so chipper about it.

I read it as they are rightly protected as a group, not rightly protected as women.
So to me it draws a distinction between women (protected by sex and eligible for AWS) and transpeople (protected because of gender reassignment but nowt to do with women)

I think this is a bit unfair. JJ found a specific point of law on which to challenge Labour on a specific situation.

I felt the language changed - suddenly it seemed a bit 'all women both those born female and those with a GRC'...

The crowdfunder says:

"Women, as a marginalised group, are entitled to AWS under Equality Act 2010 exemptions. Trans people who have had gender reassigment are also, rightly, protected as a group under the act but men who simply self-id as women are not."

I would have preferred the language to be cooler about the GRC - eg- 'as the law currently stands a GRC legally makes a person a woman and also legally entitled to be on AWS'

the 'rightly' bit made my support wither

Maybe she should have just said 'legally' rather than 'rightly' and I might not be so disappointed.

If you want people to see what Cluster B looks like, expose the narcissistic rage. In public. Where cameras are filming, from multiple angles. India W., Tara Woods, the events at the Anarchist Book Fair -- all were instances of narcissistic rage and revealed something about trans activists, trans ideology, and Cluster B to the public.

This.

GuardianLions - I don't like the idea of compromising. It undermined every argument when JJ conceded that TIMs with a GRC should be allowed onto AWS.

I felt my support wither a bit at that point.

I think this is a bit unfair. JJ found a specific point of law on which to challenge Labour on a specific situation.

The EA states that AWS are only legal on the grounds of the protected characteristic of sex. The GRA states that TIMs with a GRC have a legal sex of female. Self-IDing TIMs do not share the protected characteristic of sex with women but those with a GRC do (legally - I know it makes no actual sense).

The campaign was started on the premise that Labour are breaking the law. This is a legal battle we could win. There are lawyers willing to take it on. This is strategic litigation, which will always come down to specific points of law and how they are being applied in specific situations.

I agree that AWS should only be open to women and not to TIMs with a GRC but that's not what the law currently says. To challenge that would be a very different kind of campaign because we'd be asking for the law to be changed, not simply for a major political party to abide by the law as it stands.

Also that self-described 'she-male' with a '7 inch surprise' trying to sue for the 'distress' caused through being incarcerated in the male estate for his act of male violence

Narcissistic rage.... no matter how ludicrous, every authority has to bend to their wishes and delusions..... or else

Yep. I half suspect CBB of rigging the vote to get Willoughby out of the show because he was peak transing too many viewers.

They always say, listen to trans women. I did, and they showed me exactly who they were.

For some it is a fetish and for others it is a belief that no one actually believes.
Can you mandate belief?
Can you codify into law the idea that some people can mind over matter themselves out of material reality and into the opposite sex and must be treated accordingly?
It is like transubstantiation. A belief that no one actually believes.
Will you allow people to drug and mutilate children based on this belief that no one believes?

If it isn't a mental health condition, and it can't be a medical condition if there are no physical diagnostic criteria, then why is the NHS paying for it?

Should have stuck with "dysphoria is a mental health condition", but then the fetishists and MRAs would have to admit that they don't have it.

That's s interesting PracticallyTerfectInEveryWay

This is the definition of medical condition.

*Medical condition: A disease, illness or injury; any physiologic, mental or psychological condition or disorder

It's not an injury or presumably a disease or illness. So that leaves mental or psychological disorder.

And if they can still get treatment, it rather begs the question of why they want it changed. Presumably to stop people from saying they have a mental illness.

Except, using the definition of medical condition, it doesn't.

Either way, it does clear up the motivation to at least blur the lines.

Kind of OT but my impression was that this group skewed older than that.

This is a completely sterile debate. It should not even exist. Transgender is a completely separate issue from being female. Or male.
As an example, would anyone want to look back 37 years to the infamous Bristol 'it' toilets? That was a furore which erupted before many contributors on here were even born.
Why even bother to debate this very old subject?

Still trying to get my head around the medical aspects of this. It's frightening if medical professionals have been bullied into line.

Datun I've just copied and pasted this off the actual NHS website at www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/

"Gender dysphoria is a recognised medical condition, for which treatment is sometimes appropriate. It's not a mental illness"

So if it is classified as a physical condition presumably someone can still get their hormones and surgery on the NHS.

Indeed.

I've been saying for years that TRAs are gaslighting feminists and I don't think that's unrelated to the higher than average rates of NPD in that community. But yeah, to people lucky enough to have never dealt with someone like that it's easy to be all "oh you're just being unkind to this poor unhappy person".

Yes and if you have experienced it - you know that people who haven't are completely clueless, so it is hard to rally support. Clueless people will suggest 'benefit of the doubt' and other ludicrous things - and you feel like you are in an Alfred Hitchcock movie - disbelieved by everyone while they clean up and leave you a shell of your former self!

Once you've dealt with a person who has one of what were formerly called the Cluster B disorders you recognize the behavior immediately when you see it again, and it's so frustrating watching people get pulled in to their manipulative bullshit. I'd hate to have to deal with someone like that as a claims department.

Right kittens - PD people are absolute experts in manipulating the different complaints procedures, playing agents off against each-other, flattery and flavour of the month, an instinct for everyone's personal weaknesses to exploit, finding loopholes in policies, spending more time than anyone else can spare on obsessing .... they are such fuckers.

To expand - in general we want the NHS to take patient complaints seriously, right? But you can't take complaints from a patient with a personality disorder at face value, because they can and will twist everything to suit the interpretation of reality that gets them what they want. Therapists know this. Do the people responsible for handling complaints, though? And given the current model of trans healthcare, are personality disorders being properly diagnosed and noted in patients' files? I feel like that last part isn't happening at all.

As far as I know gender dysphoria is still considered a mental disorder under the DSM-V. I know that's an American publication. And I know they changed it from gender identity disorder to gender dysphoria.

And it's all because of pressure from trans-activists.

I'm aghast that the NHS have caved to the pressure to this extent.

And I still can't see the long game.

Removing the criteria of gender dysphoria, logically, will remove treatment.

I'm absolutely certain that trans-activists don't think this will happen. It's no fun being a fetishist if you can't have hormones to grow boobs.

And we know that genuine transsexuals fully approve of the gatekeeping.

So there is very definite catch in there somewhere that I'm missing.

They're in danger of losing their medical licenses if they don't play along, in some areas. So in order to turn this train around we're going to have to convince the NHS to protect therapists and doctors who get caught in the crosshairs of a patient's narcissistic rage syndrome.

The reason for the reclassification of dysphoria from being a mental illness by the NHS must be because of terrifying narcissists who will stop at nothing to get their way.

Such an enormous organisation officially lying like that, eludes to an absolutely staggering scale of intimidation and threats of medical professionals behind the scenes.

I know a psychologist who was advised to never fight someone with a personality disorder because they will not stop until they have ruined your reputation and career and you can never practice again. Just give them what they want quickly and extricate yourself.

Too many practitioners, terrified for themselves, must have betrayed their own consciences in the name of self-preservation to end up where we are now.

I agree a review of medical ethics needs to happen, to actually empower medical professionals to stand up to these arseholes.

I got what you meant kittens