Self-id isn't women vs transwomen. It is daughters, mothers, wives, sisters vs predatory men.

I look forward to a well researched, in-depth item on WATO very soon.

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth

That's brilliant!

This covers the issues very well

fairplayforwomen.com/open-letter-radio-4s-world-one/

That's great NaturalWoman.

I've posted before about my leftie liberal DH (under different username) who says I'm a bigot and will be on the wrong side of history. Well, last night, he said "obviously no one is saying trans women are literally female"... er, yes, they are! Logical next question "so do you now feel we don't need sex-segregation?" which he blustered about for a while but ultimately feels that sex-segregation is very much needed.

So, despite feeling pissed off that this kind of means the word "woman" has been co opted and the meaning changezd so woman is more a qualifier of gender rather than sex, I feel there may be some pennies dropping.

Good job

Oh my life. Had to cone back to this thread - @hipsterfun I've only just read your reply to me, sorry.

I had previously done that, but he refused to read anything by or endorsed by TERFs.

However, last night, we had a really long chat about it. He listened and at the end of it said "You know, Mum, you're absolutely right". He even started drawing some of the conclusiions we have on his own.

He's still not quite where I am, but recognises that's becaise he is a straight man and, therefore, not directly fearful of the impact. But he said he's going to start reading around it more. Which is brilliant.

NaturalWoman, can you ask your son to spend an hour reading selected threads on here and then come back to you?

We need to start talking about how the real problem here is men being exclusionary of non-masculine males. Its 2018, people should be able to wear, do and be what they like without anyone telling them they need a sex change.

Yes, yes, yes.

With sports they think I've been at the alternative news, of the Freddie Starr ate my hamster variety. I have been laughed at for believing such obviously fake news. I show reliable reporting and photos of the sportspeople and the overwhelming reaction is disbelief because something so obviously wrong can't be happening. They kind of disengage because it is so implausible. Men are far more outraged about the sporting "unfairness" than women according to my anecdata

Totally agree.

My son and I had a huge difference of opinion on this because he thinks being in support of it means he's defending the rights of someone so far down the pecking order that they make women look privileged.

When I talked about the self id, he shut me down as being utterly ridiculous amd paranoid because there is no way that would happen.

His actual position on it when we last talked about it a month or so ago was that "Mother, we have a Tory government. These are the people who are seeing disabled people made destitute. Do you honestly think they'd support a ludicrous minority of men being allowed into women's changing rooms, prisons and women's refuges based on no more than them saying "i'm a woman'?"

And he's not alone.

if you take a look at the comments under the line on articles in the Times, the narrative has changed from a 'what are you all talking about? This is irrelevan.' to an exasperated acknowledgement of the seriousness of the issue
I think it's when children's safety is highlighted that people start to get it so the article talked about on this thread has mainly gender critical comments:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3151983-Teacher-wins-fight-over-transphobic-comments
(look for the second link as it gets you behind the paywall).

TheBadgersMadeMeDoIt I, a 52 year old straight woman, is seriously discussing self identifying as a gay man with my straight male partner if it becomes legal in Scotland. I think some form of self id will pass, all political parties and women’s orgs are in favour. So making a mockery out of it seems the way forward. Gonna be a gay man and invite Partrick Harvie, co chair of Scottish Green Party and very pro self id, to my wedding to partner, who will be a gay man now.Then he, partner, will id as a woman and we’ll be a straight couple again. Madness. But that’s the way it’s going.

I'm not sure how to get men more concerned because for the most part is does not affect them at all.

Because many of them have female partners and daughters? DP wasn’t happy at the thought of the likes of Big Dan Muscato in the female change at the swimming pool.

Issue is though, once its written into law, it will be extremely hard to get rid of. Could literally take a hundred years to win back the rights that the people formerly known as women had

When I'm feeling masochistic enough to think this through to the nth degree, the only conclusion I can come to is that we may have to just watch self-ID become law...and then let society devour itself. We could accelerate things if enough women decide to self-ID as men. I think that's the only thing that will make the patriarchy sit up and take notice. Gangs of brave women brandishing GRCs and demanding entry to men's hospital wards, changing rooms, private clubs etc might just show some of them what nonsensical dumbfuckery self-ID actually is.

It's not much comfort.

@Patodp ehh I'd Ltb

Yes, men will notice that much more than they will notice the hypothetical "male person demands space in refuge" that can't be proven because no-one is going to out all the women in that same refuge by going public.

Most men think this is just women arguing among themselves - it's not an issue for men, they know transwomen aren't women, they don't even have to think about it.

Beating a high profile medal hope for the UK.

I'm waiting for the next Olympics.

I really hope a male person (one who can be evidenced as being a boy and competing as a male, not an intersex person) wins a high profile female event.

That will peak trans the many people I know who are absolutely certain it won't happen.

Lots of people don't care about prisons; they've never been in one or known anyone in one. Toilets are a non-issue because we've been sharing with genuine, quiet, get-on-with-our-lives transexuals for years with no issues.

DH has discussed it with colleagues. Male liberal types. More hipster than a hipster.

Apparently jaws dropped and disbelief and horror expressed.

I don't talk about this in real life, ever.

People in general know TIMs are not women when they see it

This. I think we need to stop engaging with the transwomen are women thing on the grounds that it's self-evident bollocks. Arguing with it gives it a legitimacy it really doesn't deserve.

We need to start talking about how the real problem here is men being exclusionary of non-masculine males. Its 2018, people should be able to wear, do and be what they like without anyone telling them they need a sex change.

You can't discuss this. Any attempt to is shut down with howls about transphobia and hate.
Simply saying "trans women are not women " in public is enough to put your job in danger for a lot of people.

Whenever I mention anything about it, for example in sport or women's prisons or women's refuges I am met with disbelief "don't be stupid, you can't believe everything you read on the internet " or the mantra "trans women are women #nodebate"

I agree. I've had some initial conversations with several friends. No-one has any awareness if what's happening, and if I start talking about the real consequences of self id, men in women's groups they look at me like I am barmy.

There's been a survey carried out?