FT investigation: Men only fundraiser and sexual harrassment

Yes, there's been something of a "but I know I'm a nice man so why does Doreen in accounts look so cross when I tell her how attractive she looks in that dress?" derail going on.

It does take a special kind of stupid to move seamlessly from "rich git tells woman on 15 quid an hour for a 10 hour shift to take her knickers off and dance on the table" to "it leaves nice men worried they can't compliment Doreen in accounts" when (a) the second scenario is only tangentially relevant to the first and (b) the second one is actually pretty creepy behaviour too.

Please stop feeding the sealion. 🙏

Do these men who you compliment on their appearance ever get the wrong end of the stick? If not, why not?

I remember when this thread wasn't so dull.

Yes I've said it to a man, usually at a wedding or such when their appearance is notably different.

It would be like 'looking very dapper there!' - it would be a lighthearted comment and a true one at the same time. It begs the question, why
can't that be said to a woman too? I don't turn into a monster because I say it to a woman. Her gender is irrelevant, so why should the treatment of the sentiment differ by gender?

Perhaps I am wrong, but it feels that the actions of those men (and those like them) create a tension between perfectly moderate men and women, where both feel guarded. That's a terrible shame indeed.
What, as opposed to the situation where just the women feel guarded and the men feel totally relaxed and fine? No skin off my nose if men suddenly feel they have to watch themselves and how they are perceived round women. In fact it would be good for them to get a taste of that.

That is the best thing I've read in weeks.

You look fantastic in that outfit

Would you say this to a man? No? Then what makes you think it's ok to say it to a woman?

Look, in the unlikely event you really are asking for Miss Manners style social advice, rather than shit-stirring to amuse yourself , allow me to assist you.

Miss Manners writes:

Dear Brilliant of Mumsnet,
I was distressed to hear of your predicament. Sadly, based on your own account of your behaviour, you clearly have no idea how to conduct social interactions. Sadly, it is my task to explain to you that you are engaged in behaviour which we in the etiquette business describe as digging your way to fucking Australia.

Fortunately, there is an easy solution right at your fingertips. Don't do it. Talk about the weather. Ask what they watched on TV last night. Say how useful the report they produced on XYZ potential client/merger/acquisition was. Loads of things you can talk about without mentioning their appearance.

Fine to find someone attractive. Most of us (who are not asexual) do, from time to time.

However, the only circs in which it is okay to mention it to them is if you are in a social situation - bar, nightclub - where it might be okay to flirt. Even then do not do it as an opening gambit. Try the weather, the DJ's choice of music, the dreadful wine selection as openers. Ask her name first (you'll be relieved to know that it is no longer necessary to wait for a third party known to both of you to introduce you in this day and age). Only if the woman responds with interest to your overtures may you compliment her appearance. And do it once and once only - if you get a brush off you move on.

The only circs in which it is okay to mention that you find a woman attractive to a third party is if that third party is a really good mate, you won't be overheard and you are 100% certain the mate won't blab about it. And even then, if you do so in terms of "phwoarr I'd give her one" you are what used to be known, in a more genteel age, as a bit of a cad.

Sadly, however, based on your letter, in your case, I'd say you show signs of such severe social impairment in reading social situations that you'd be much safer leaving it to the woman to make the first move. If none of them do, then consider trainspotting as an alternative hobby.

Kindest regards,
Miss Manners

That is what sharing your judgment of women is
Judgment of women? No, it's an individual attraction to a specific person. When that happens, neither party should feel particular afraid to say it.

There's a world of difference between a man telling every woman in a short skirt (we don't need to repeat what they might say), and one who finds a specific lady attractive as everyday people do. But because of the ill-behaviour of some, the normal behaviours of others are affected, not always for the better.

Which do you disagree with?

a) A man can find a woman attractive
b) A man can say so (note I did not say he has a right to, or should do so), merely that it really ought to be possible without people assuming it's some loaded sexual precursor.
c) Both of the above?

'Don't make comments that can even be remotely construed as sexual'?

That's the problem right there. That's the fear some perfectly reasonable men have. 'You look fantastic in that outfit' can suddenly turn a compliment in the words of some sordid sex pest. I find that a crying shame, and I DO blame SOME men for getting us into that situation.

Those few men create repercussions for the rest. I think I'm allowed to lament that.

Just keep digging, Brilliant!

I said a man can find a woman attractive and say so
That is what sharing your judgment of women is, d00d. That is what entitlement looks like.

Nobody said 'entitled to judge women', I said a man can find a woman attractive and say so (and vice versa) without it being threatening or objectifying - but thanks to the types of men that DO treat women this way, it makes for a more uncertain atmosphere amongst perfectly decent people.

The similarity is with the feeling that men can have when taking their child to a park, or if their natural instinct to tend to a hurt child is curbed by the fear of being a man approaching a child. Many men feel this.

This is what happens when the 'bad' guys actions affect the rest of decent society and it causes people to stem their own natural behaviours. I wouldn't dream of walking behind a woman in a dark car park because I understand the anxiety that might cause. That anxiety isn't created by me, it's created by those relative few that attack women.

In the same way, the nauseating sexual comments made by these men can make perfectly decent men reluctant to say they find someone attractive for fear of it being judged in precisely the way people have done above.

Fact of the matter is, some women were paid 15 quid an hour and treated poorly for that money, even though for most it was probably the first time they'd done that gig

Some men paid ks for tickets, and it was the 30th one, so they knew what they were getting into.

I know who's at fault here, who were the people who should have known better, and it wasn't the women.

Easily solved mistake: don't make comments which could (even remotely) be construed as sexual.

If you can manage not to be inadvertently sexual towards men, then you can manage it towards women too. Same skills.

Your belief, Brilliant, that you are entitled to judge women wherever you go is one indicator that you may be a sexist arsewipe.

Brilliant it's quite simple really. If you don't behave like a sexist arsewipe, then no-one will call you out for being a sexist arsewipe. It really isn't rocket science.

(Handy hint, though - you asked "when is it appropriate to comment on a passing woman's sexual attractiveness to a third party in a work context?" Fortunately, there is a one-word answer to this one: "Never.")

Yes Brilliant, we know that the 10th rule of misogyny is that the worst thing about men abusing women is that it makes men look bad.

Events like this make men like me a little more paranoid.
For instance, it doesn't feel wrong to find a woman attractive, be it as a barmaid serving me, or as a customer I might serve. But the worry then arises about is it ok to say to colleague 'she was attractive!'? On the one hand, why should I have to mention that to a colleague, and on the other hand, why should I feel that I can't say it?

Where is the line drawn between 'he/she is pleasing on the eye' vs 'he/she is really engaging mentally, I like them a lot' vs the obviously crass 'I'd .... that!'?

I think the extreme behaviour of the type of men in the article affects all of us and make us nervous about any positive comment we might make about a woman that might be considered remotely sexual. Whilst I might be able to say 'I find her attractive', a less articulate friend of mine might say 'I really fancy her'. From my perspective, both are innocuous and genuine comments, but to some, it might be interpreted as the very mild end of a sexual comment.

I suspect there are some very decent men unsure of themselves.

It almost reminds me of the reluctance we can feel when considering comforting a child who has hurt themselves.

Perhaps I am wrong, but it feels that the actions of those men (and those like them) create a tension between perfectly moderate men and women, where both feel guarded. That's a terrible shame indeed.

I should probably say that I was there as part of the "entertainment" and not as a paying guest before I get e-lynched.
You probably think that is a joke, ForestDad. What it is is a tiny red alert flag.

I worked on the trading floor of a large US bank in London about 15 years ago, and when the young bucks did a good trade or made a lot of money or whatever, the head of the desk would arrange various "treats". They usually used to go to the strip clubs and brothels of East London that serviced these people, but one day, I was sitting at my desk eating a sandwich, about 12.30, and the desk head went down to the lifts looking all pleased with himself and came back with about 12 prostitutes, who proceeded to file past my desk. Much hilarity ensued before they all retired into a couple of boardrooms for awhile. Sometime later, they all trooped out with a woman each and went off for the aftetnoon to a nearby hotel. This wasnt the last time I saw this.

Now ok a lot if those excesses went away in the noughties and after the various financial crisis (not surprised, they were so coked and sexed up Im amazed they could make any kind of mathematical decisions), but those guys, who were in their twenties and thirties then are now in their fifties and sixties now and are some of the very captains of industry we are discussing. Dont tell me they have all had some kind of road to damascus epiphany in the meantime and have now become more enlightened, respectful men. They bloody havent.

The good news is I dont see young guys behaving like that anymore. But I think we still need that controlling generation of men to retire/die off to get rid of this shit once and for all. Hopefully the medias change of heart and the various exposes of the last couple of years are the beginning of this sea change. Bloody bring it on I say, I dont want my daughters to have to put up with the shit I put up with and I dont want my sons to be that kind of man.